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Author Topic: No such thing as LWOP  (Read 6018 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 02:39:07 AM »
Hi JT,

at first I want to thank you for the really interesting discussion which brought me some new facts and views.  :-*

I avoided the multi-quotes, but it seems that we reached a level where it´ll become difficult to answer without quoting. To improve the "usability" of this topic we should ask for an own sub-forum with topics for every point.  ;)

I started to write my answer about 5 times and every time I wasn´t satisfied with the things I wrote. So I started to think about the whole discussion again and I found the differnece between us. We pick some examples to prove that we need an political union or not in Europe. We discuss over "peanuts" and not the real problem.  ;) If we discuss details we can´t move forward. Both of us can bring examples to support his own opinion.

The general problem is, that we grow up with different backgrounds. I live in Germany,  a federal organized country, a coutry who lost 2 wars. I think GB is more centralized and a former empire. As I grow up I knew that some decisions will be made in Berlin, some in Baden-Wuerttemberg, the state I live.  For me there´s no problem that politics happens in different levels. We made a good experience with that.

To adopt this idea on Europe is just a small step for me - i can´t understand people from Saxon as people form Spain.  In Germany we have reach and poor states, states with their focus on tourism, agricultre, industry. These states had to deal with specific problems, f.e. Rhineland with coal and iron industry. Together we solved most of the problems.

I think this idea can work in whole Europe (if I wrote Europe, the eastern coutrnies are in my eyes not part of my Europe. Also I would have problems with Turkey).

If I read all your posts correct it seems that you´re a man whichs works in a scientific business. You can see how the European Union can improve the quality of science. Excellence universities which bring together the best people from whole Europe. All our universities are linked. the students and pupil exchange brings new ideas into other countries. I like this idea.

I know, your question will be - Why do we need a political union for that? I just can asnwer, that the management of all these programs will be much easier.

All examples I write end at the point Size matters - (technic is not every time enough  ;) ). You think that most things can be arranged better by a single country. I think to stand the competition with larger countries we need to find a solution to work to gether that any european country has its benefits.

Therefore i didn´t answer your quotes directly. I hope you can understand it. I don´t mean it unfriendly (and I read your post several times). The problem is, that we have different ideas how countries can stand the competition. I prefer size and you prefer, in my opinion, flexible units.

The rules/guidlelines of the European Monetary Union is the result of consultations of 16 (?) countries. They decieded that the stability of the money is the most important target for the ECB. This is not a german target. We had big problems with that too. I see no problem that one bank for a large market is a problem. Look at the US, a big market with very different states too. there it works fine.

Best

Michael
I´m not sure if there´s a hell, but I believe in executed murderers.

Offline JT

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 03:43:40 AM »
Hey, Michael -- I have a few questions.  (1) What do you think is causing the rioting in Paris we have seen in the past week?  And (2) what is causing the wildcat strikes which you may or may not have heard about in northern England?

I know the answers: (1) the inherent instability of European Monetary Union on a supranational level; and (2) the European Union and its didactic statutes.

I told you this would happen weeks ago, and my concerns were disregarded as little more than British anti-EU propaganda.  I was right, wasn't I?  Remember, as the Euro slowly unwinds over on the continent, there will be a smug English bastard on the other side of the North Sea smirking at your downfall.

* * * * *

One more thing: what does the British Empire have to do with this?  You are indeed correct to state that Germany operates on a federal republic form of government, yet like just about every other foreigner you do not understand the uncodified constitution of government in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth realms.  I'm not taking a swipe at you for this, just pointing out that because the constitution of government in Britain relies upon an innumerate number of Acts of Parliament, treaties with Commonwealth realms (the Statute of Westminster of 1931, the Balfour Declaration, the Edinburgh Declaration, the Singapore Declaration, et cetera), common law rulings, and multiple unofficial, centuries-old precedents, most non-Britons who have not specifically studied this system do not understand it.

The British Empire is the largest empire to ever grace the face of this mortal coil we call home, and you may guess that I am ardently proud of the edifice which directly introduced Western liberal democracy to over fifty countries worldwide.  At the height of the British Empire in 1922, over 25% of the world's land surface was controlled by the government in London.  I have heard it said before that the British still consider themselves to be a powerful (and possibly superior) people as a throwback from the British Empire.  You'd likely wager that I fit into this group.  This vein of thinking doubtlessly in part explains why around 70% of the British are self-confessed Eurosceptics.  There is a fundamental psyche which would prevent the British people from supporting full absorption into a United States of Europe.  You may consider this to be iniquitous, I do not.
JT's Ridiculous Quote of the Century:
"I'm disgusted with the State for even putting me in this position."
-- Reginald Blanton, Texas death row.  As of October 27, 2009, Reggie's position has been in a coffin.

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 02:32:30 PM »
JT - I wrote about half an hour on my answer and then there had been a power outtake... I´ll answer tomorrow.

Michael
I´m not sure if there´s a hell, but I believe in executed murderers.

Offline JT

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 02:43:44 PM »
Now that's just unlucky, Michael!  ;D

Don't feel as though I'm rushing you to reply - just do so when you have the spare time.
JT's Ridiculous Quote of the Century:
"I'm disgusted with the State for even putting me in this position."
-- Reginald Blanton, Texas death row.  As of October 27, 2009, Reggie's position has been in a coffin.

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 04:02:10 PM »
I´ll bet this was a problem caused by the british - the european energy market is linked together and maybe a power plant in London had a breakdown and the british need urgentlsy energy from us. The time the switch needed to close the circuit was long enough to shut down my pc.
 ;)
Michael
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Offline JT

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 09:08:40 AM »
Not very likely.  The power system in Britain is remarkably stable and reliable -- much more so than its counterparts in other European countries.  I've honestly not experienced a power cut in about 10 years.

On the other hand, at our villa in Spain every time somebody turns on the oven, the lights go very dim.  It also sometimes knocks out the TV because it can't get enough power.  That can get rather annoying at night...

;)
JT's Ridiculous Quote of the Century:
"I'm disgusted with the State for even putting me in this position."
-- Reginald Blanton, Texas death row.  As of October 27, 2009, Reggie's position has been in a coffin.

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 02:45:46 PM »
Hi JT, you must be wrong... outtakes of milliseconds are usual in power systems, the switches need this time if a blitz hits a trafo, powerline, ...

Any you problem in Spain is not made by the spain power system, you need a good electrican.

Michael

*answer follows later*
I´m not sure if there´s a hell, but I believe in executed murderers.

Offline Russki

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2009, 11:53:31 AM »
Hi

I feel I woud like to add my 'two penny's worth' here.

Firstly, I have to own up to having served a term as a Euro MP. I did not elect to stand again but it was a close run thing and I returned to my profession and to the better weather in the South.

I have to say that I am a staunch supporter of a federal state and reject the illustration of JT which suggests that it is Nazi.

I do consider that it has been a disaster to allow entry of what I feel are still 'third world European countries'. It has been a political move which will casue many problems.

However, I personally would like that the UK either pisses in the pot or gets off it altogether. I strongly believe that the UK is operated by a small number of 'good old boys' entirely for their own benefit and the current banking disasters, for me, affirm this.

I have always felt that the UK was perhaps the most corrupt of the main EU members. Steal from the taxpaying population to give huge benefits to the 'usual suspects'. The veneer of the Brit sophisticates often hides this reality and the issuance of a title completely obscures the situation.

The current plunge of the UK pound confirms to me that the UK has only made decisions which benefit a few with scant regard for its people.

LWOP is better than nothing but in my mind, recidivism is best prevented by CP and I for one, as indeed do many others in Europe, campaign to change the current situation.

Frenchy
Bombs do not choose. They will hit everything   ... Nikita Khrushchev

I once said, "We will bury you," and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you.  ... Nikita Khrushchev

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 01:43:31 AM »
So, here´s my long awaited answer..  ;)

At first thank you for your good points Frenchy.  :-*  .. and even if you had been a part-time-politican you won´t loose an iota of credit in my eyes.  ;)

JT, your opinion about the EUR is in contrast to the opinions of most experts about the good effect of the EUR to the participating countries. I know you´re not a friend of the idea of the EUR, but if you look at the US, the worlds biggest economy, you can see that it´s possible to have one common currency in a big area with different "economies" and people. 

Unfortunately we won´t reach a common ground on the EUR.

You got my point about the Empire wrong. I tried to explain a point with history. The British made good experiences with a centralized empire. They took care of themselves andneed no help from outside (most times). We germans lived since hundred of years in small kingdoms, duchies, .. we made good experiences with that. The times we had been ruled by a centralized adminsitration hadn´t been the best for us (and the world). Based on this experience our citizens may prefer the EU or oppose it. It´s a kind of national self-concept to share might or not.

Michael
I´m not sure if there´s a hell, but I believe in executed murderers.

Offline JT

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 04:58:05 AM »
There's a certain irony in Frenchy's post -- the rant about the establishment of which he himself admits being part.  Does Frenchy seriously believe that the European Parliament is "whiter than white?"  That there is not a single MEP willing to accept a pecuniary reward for political favours?

Britain does have an "old boys' club"... but so does every other nation on earth.  I sense an indirect reference to the corruption in the House of Lords.  It is indeed true that we have Earls and Barons and Viscounts willing to take back-handed payments for political assistance.  If the Lords continue to show themselves incapable of handling their minor political power (they can't actually veto legislation from the Commons - see the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949) without resorting to corruption, I favour their abolition.  I have great respect for the traditionally unelected parts of our parliamentary system, but only as long as those involved remain on the straight and narrow.  Alternatively, we should move to an elected upper chamber or, more drastically, to a unicameral parliament.  I do not, however, favour abolition of the monarchy under any circumstances.

In response to any further corruption in society in general -- well, I'm really not too bothered...

Next we move on to a rant about economics and some imaginary superiority of the Euro over Sterling perpetuated by both Michael and Frenchy.  I've not actually received an explanation from either honourable gentleman refuting my points about the inherent instability of the Euro when distributed over the economies of so many different nations.  Rather, I've received an attack on the "weakness" of GBP.  Apparently Frenchy doesn't know the cause of this disparity; I suggest he looks to the interest rates currently set by the Bank of England and by the European Central Bank for proper elucidation.  The Euro has a long way to fall in this crisis (the causes of which I have correctly detailed in Frenchy's thread about bankers).  There was an op-ed piece by an economics reporter, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, which I read in Sunday's edition of the Telegraph.  For Frenchy's benefit:

Quote
Failure to save East Europe will lead to worldwide meltdown

The unfolding debt drama in Russia, Ukraine, and the EU states of Eastern Europe has reached acute danger point.

If mishandled by the world policy establishment, this debacle is big enough to shatter the fragile banking systems of Western Europe and set off round two of our financial Götterdämmerung.

Austria's finance minister Josef Pröll made frantic efforts last week to put together a €150bn rescue for the ex-Soviet bloc. Well he might. His banks have lent €230bn to the region, equal to 70pc of Austria's GDP.

"A failure rate of 10pc would lead to the collapse of the Austrian financial sector," reported Der Standard in Vienna. Unfortunately, that is about to happen.

The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) says bad debts will top 10pc and may reach 20pc. The Vienna press said Bank Austria and its Italian owner Unicredit face a "monetary Stalingrad" in the East.

Mr Pröll tried to drum up support for his rescue package from EU finance ministers in Brussels last week. The idea was scotched by Germany's Peer Steinbrück. Not our problem, he said. We'll see about that.

Stephen Jen, currency chief at Morgan Stanley, said Eastern Europe has borrowed $1.7 trillion abroad, much on short-term maturities. It must repay – or roll over – $400bn this year, equal to a third of the region's GDP. Good luck. The credit window has slammed shut.

Not even Russia can easily cover the $500bn dollar debts of its oligarchs while oil remains near $33 a barrel. The budget is based on Urals crude at $95. Russia has bled 36pc of its foreign reserves since August defending the rouble.

"This is the largest run on a currency in history," said Mr Jen.

In Poland, 60pc of mortgages are in Swiss francs. The zloty has just halved against the franc. Hungary, the Balkans, the Baltics, and Ukraine are all suffering variants of this story. As an act of collective folly – by lenders and borrowers – it matches America's sub-prime debacle. There is a crucial difference, however. European banks are on the hook for both. US banks are not.

Almost all East bloc debts are owed to West Europe, especially Austrian, Swedish, Greek, Italian, and Belgian banks. En plus, Europeans account for an astonishing 74pc of the entire $4.9 trillion portfolio of loans to emerging markets.

They are five times more exposed to this latest bust than American or Japanese banks, and they are 50pc more leveraged (IMF data).

Spain is up to its neck in Latin America, which has belatedly joined the slump (Mexico's car output fell 51pc in January, and Brazil lost 650,000 jobs in one month). Britain and Switzerland are up to their necks in Asia.

Whether it takes months, or just weeks, the world is going to discover that Europe's financial system is sunk, and that there is no EU Federal Reserve yet ready to act as a lender of last resort or to flood the markets with emergency stimulus.

Under a "Taylor Rule" analysis, the European Central Bank already needs to cut rates to zero and then purchase bonds and Pfandbriefe on a huge scale. It is constrained by geopolitics – a German-Dutch veto – and the Maastricht Treaty.

But I digress. It is East Europe that is blowing up right now. Erik Berglof, EBRD's chief economist, told me the region may need €400bn in help to cover loans and prop up the credit system.

Europe's governments are making matters worse. Some are pressuring their banks to pull back, undercutting subsidiaries in East Europe. Athens has ordered Greek banks to pull out of the Balkans.

The sums needed are beyond the limits of the IMF, which has already bailed out Hungary, Ukraine, Latvia, Belarus, Iceland, and Pakistan – and Turkey next – and is fast exhausting its own $200bn (€155bn) reserve. We are nearing the point where the IMF may have to print money for the world, using arcane powers to issue Special Drawing Rights.

Its $16bn rescue of Ukraine has unravelled. The country – facing a 12pc contraction in GDP after the collapse of steel prices – is hurtling towards default, leaving Unicredit, Raffeisen and ING in the lurch. Pakistan wants another $7.6bn. Latvia's central bank governor has declared his economy "clinically dead" after it shrank 10.5pc in the fourth quarter. Protesters have smashed the treasury and stormed parliament.

"This is much worse than the East Asia crisis in the 1990s," said Lars Christensen, at Danske Bank.

"There are accidents waiting to happen across the region, but the EU institutions don't have any framework for dealing with this. The day they decide not to save one of these one countries will be the trigger for a massive crisis with contagion spreading into the EU."

Europe is already in deeper trouble than the ECB or EU leaders ever expected. Germany contracted at an annual rate of 8.4pc in the fourth quarter.

If Deutsche Bank is correct, the economy will have shrunk by nearly 9pc before the end of this year. This is the sort of level that stokes popular revolt.

The implications are obvious. Berlin is not going to rescue Ireland, Spain, Greece and Portugal as the collapse of their credit bubbles leads to rising defaults, or rescue Italy by accepting plans for EU "union bonds" should the debt markets take fright at the rocketing trajectory of Italy's public debt (hitting 112pc of GDP next year, just revised up from 101pc – big change), or rescue Austria from its Habsburg adventurism.

So we watch and wait as the lethal brush fires move closer.

If one spark jumps across the eurozone line, we will have global systemic crisis within days. Are the firemen ready?

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4623525/Failure-to-save-East-Europe-will-lead-to-worldwide-meltdown.html


Does Frenchy consider this to be the hallmark of a stable currency, and moreover a currency which will remain stable?

Finally, we devolve to a rant about what would probably be described as unfettered laissez-faire economics.  Apparently Frenchy has not quite managed to make the leap of unshackling himself from his socialist past, as he fails to realise the intrinsic morality of allowing a freedom of exchange between private citizens without regulation or taxation of the state.  If person A produces product X and person B requires product X and is willing to pay amount Y for that product, as long as the exchange is entirely informed and noncoercive, then the government is violating the freedom of both persons A and B by regulating, taxing or even prohibiting that exchange.  If the government taxes such private exchange at a rate of, say, 10%, this renders person A's product more expensive to person B.  If person A requires at least amount Y for his product, that means he will have to charge an amount (Y + 10/Y x 100) to pay the expenses demanded by force by the government.  If person B cannot afford amount (Y + 10/Y x 100) for product X, then person A loses business thanks to the government.  By extension, this means that both the government and person A have less money.  The inhibiting effects of taxation of private, mutually understood exchange are undeniable.  I have yet to receive an adequate response from a socialist explaining why this is desirable or justifiable.  In fact, the general response is a fatuous "won't somebody please think of the poor!?" shriek.

We in Britain have a mostly capitalist economy.  In the Economic Freedom of the World Listings[1] from 2008, Britain was ranked 5th in the world in terms of its economic freedom, with a relative index score of 8.07 out of 10.00.  In fact, we beat that great capitalist nation the United States, which came in at 9th place with a slightly lower index of 8.04.  France was ranked 45th in the world, with a relative index of 7.19.  It was ranked far lower than Germany, at 17th with 6.14; Austria, at 15th with 7.66; and Spain, at 32nd with 7.38.  Congratulations are in order, however, for beating Italy, at 50th with 7.15.  The only European country with a score higher than Britain was Switzerland, at 4th place with 8.20.  Apparently Frenchy is proud that his country limits his freedoms in this way.  Boast away all you want, Frenchy -- I'm not jealous, and I would hope nobody else on this forum was envious of your demonstrably restricted life.


____________
[1]: See Index of Economic Freedoms 2008, The Economic Freedom Network, http://www.freetheworld.com/.
JT's Ridiculous Quote of the Century:
"I'm disgusted with the State for even putting me in this position."
-- Reginald Blanton, Texas death row.  As of October 27, 2009, Reggie's position has been in a coffin.

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 07:53:16 AM »
I don´t want to talk aboout corruption, old-boys-club or call it what you want.  This is a completly other topic. Sometimes I think you, JT, take things I (and Frenchy) post about Britain personal and it looks like you try to defend Britain on your own. That´s not what we want (I think I can speak for Frenchy in this case too).

Fact is that the EUR brought good things to a lot of countries:
- less deficit spending
- inflation rate less than 2 %
- limited import prices

That´s fact. And we discuss if the monetary politics of the ECB is correct or not. I think there´s no answer, history will show. There are several theroies how a state have to act, but they´re just theories. The us-way to wipe away every recession with new money leds every time to new crices. The problem is that the money which is in the market needs new markets to grow and to spend the interests. Several scientists forecastet based on this theory the actual crisis.

Michael
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Offline Russki

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 12:19:07 PM »
Hmm... I do indeed still maintain some socialist beliefs, despite coming from a privilaged background with a 'de' in front of my name.

I do NOT believe in unregulated financial dealings with other peoples' money...that is true. I have always believed that deregulation of the banking system in the UK would result in a major crash and those who would suffer the most are those who can ill afford it. Not surprising....deregulation means no rules, or at least precious few leaving greedy people to make large fortunes for themselves.

That is exactly what has happened in the UK.

I do accept that some countries within the Eurozone have not been too smart in their investments but I believe that the Euro is still a much more stable affair than the solitary GBP.

I agree that France, for instance, does not rank highly financially and we have many problems. However, until this new damn President, we did care about little people. France has one of the best health services in the world, and some of us consider this to be more important than a small number of fat cats accepting immoral amounts of renumeration.

One could also equally easily compare eduction and many other social services. Britain has elected to move toward what I describe as a 'sweat shop' or 'work house' economy, whereas other countries have moved towards better lives for all.

These issues will not be resolved here as clearly we have vastly different perspectives.
I do not choose to offer such detailed dialogue on the subject as yourself, JT, as I feel that this is somewhat inappropriate on this forum.

The one point of agreement, whether capitalist or socialist, that we have is a strong support for the DP.....which only goes to show that some issues cut right across the political table.

respect to you all
Red Frenchy

Bombs do not choose. They will hit everything   ... Nikita Khrushchev

I once said, "We will bury you," and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you.  ... Nikita Khrushchev

Offline JT

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 05:53:04 AM »
Fact is that the EUR brought good things to a lot of countries:
- less deficit spending
- inflation rate less than 2 %
- limited import prices


This is all very fascinating, Michael.  But you do realise that the number of problems I have raised far outweigh the comparatively puny advantages you list above?

There is one question I recall asking of you a while back, and I don't think you've yet provided an answer.  What stops the individual nations of the EU which are outwith the eurozone from implementing the benefits you raise above?  Britain could statutorily impose upon herself a maximum public debt level as a percentage of GDP, could she not?  The Bank of England can hold interest rates as high or low as it wants, can it not?  So why must member states of the Union hand over monetary control to the ECB?  The Bank, so far as I can tell, has no magical financial powers which the member nations are not themselves capable of wielding.  The bankers in Frankfurt did not ride in on enchanted unicorns from sojournment on fricking Never Never Land.


Hmm... I do indeed still maintain some socialist beliefs, despite coming from a privilaged background with a 'de' in front of my name.


Admittedly, I was born, like you, with what many would term a silver spoon in my mouth.  The only difference is that you've apparently been choking on your spoon ever since.

I get the impression from what you've said in the past that you have a healthy income and a bank balance with several zeroes.  Now I, personally, have no issue with your wealth.  But one of the fundamentals of Marxism is that the rich bourgeoisie attain their wealth by hording it from the hapless proles.  The GDP per capita in France in 2007 was $32,600.  Applying Karl Marx's cretinous ideals, every cent you earned above $32,600 in 2007 was by your robbing some feckless working-class Parisian.  Will you be mailing a cheque to the French Government, on the understanding that they use it to fund social programs, to redress this depraved disparity?  If you were a socialist true to your ideals, I'm sure you would be only too happy to do this.


I do NOT believe in unregulated financial dealings with other peoples' money...that is true. I have always believed that deragulation of the banking system in the UK would result in a major crash and those who would suffer the most are those who can ill afford it.

That is exactly what has happened in the UK.


If you truly believe this, I suggest you re-read a few of my posts.  The primary cause of the banking crisis was the credit bubble fed by an unacceptably large supply of money.  When the government fails to correctly regulate its own control of the currency, we cannot expect unscrupulous bankers to behave any better.  To those who truly understand free market economics, this is in fact a prime example of why we should *not* centralise economic control in the government -- contrary to your rationale.


I do accept that some countries within the Eurozone have not been too smart in their investments but I believe that the Euro is still a much more stable affair than the solitary GBP.


Are there too many sulphites in your red wine or something?  If you seriously believe this, I'm not sure you've fully comprehended what I wrote above.


I agree that France, for instance, does not rank highly financially and we have many problems. However, until this new damn President, we did care about little people.


Sarkozy is just a poor reincarnation of Thatcher and Reagan... but those two firebrand politicians were actually popular during their time in office.


France has one of the best health services in the world, and some of us consider this to be more important than a small number of fat cats accepting immoral amounts of renumeration.

One could also equally easily compare eduction and many other social services. Britain has elected to move toward what I describe as a 'sweat shop' or 'work house' economy, whereas other countries have moved towards better lives for all.


The irony is killing me here, Frenchy.  For starters, weren't you privately educated yourself?  Again, so was I, but I am not overtly loathsome of private schooling.  I am perfectly happy for parents to pay for their children to receive a good education.  Yet, despite receiving such a benefit yourself, you would now like to deny that privilege to others.  That's a wee bit hypocritical, don't you think?


The one point of agreement, whether capitalist or socialist, that we have is a strong support for the DP.....which only goes to show that some issues cut right across the political table.


Absolutely.  But let us not forget that it is the socialistic types who are generally responsible for opposition to, and abolition of, the death penalty.  It was President Mitterand and Bob Badinter, both members of Parti Socialiste, who were primarily responsible for the abolition of capital punishment in France back in 1981.  Likewise, it was the Labour Party which abolished the death penalty for murder in Britain way back in 1969 -- and remember that during the Sixties and Seventies the Party described itself as a "democratic socialist" party.  The Labour Party, upon regaining power in 1997, put the final nail in the capital punishment coffin when they abolished the noose for treason (and military offenses like mutiny and desertion) in 1998.

Were you to take a random survey of death penalty supporters in the Western world, I am very certain that you would find a majority lie towards the capitalist end of the economic spectrum.


Peace out,
JT the Capitalist Pig
JT's Ridiculous Quote of the Century:
"I'm disgusted with the State for even putting me in this position."
-- Reginald Blanton, Texas death row.  As of October 27, 2009, Reggie's position has been in a coffin.

Offline Russki

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 08:40:36 AM »
Hi JT

Yes, I did read what you have written...it is just that I disagree with what you say. Yes I was privately educated and I do not suggest that private education is not an option. I was talking about the state education system.

You state that the crash was due to too much money floating around. Bullshit....it was non existent money because the bankers were not regulated!

And of course we have the latest joke. Two of the most pointless ships, boomers, one French, one English collide in the Atlantic. The British don't look where they were going as they still think they rule the waves and of course, the French were having a long lunch!

We will see concerning currency. France has always regulated its banking system more tightly, although we have had a few rogue traders. My guess is that in a year, the British will be back to Blackpool for their vacations as a week's wage will not buy a beer in Europe!

I quite agree that my political party went for anti DP but that does not mean we all agreed with it.

best regards
Frenchy
Bombs do not choose. They will hit everything   ... Nikita Khrushchev

I once said, "We will bury you," and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you.  ... Nikita Khrushchev

Offline Michael

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Re: No such thing as LWOP
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 12:36:28 PM »
There is one question I recall asking of you a while back, and I don't think you've yet provided an answer.  What stops the individual nations of the EU which are outwith the eurozone from implementing the benefits you raise above? 


JT I know you know it better (and I think a gave you the answer). Any national central bank is always in reach for politicans and oyu know that means politicans use the bank for their political targets. The ECB is out of reach for the politicans. The ECB decides just for the rules of the ruropean monetary stability pact.

Mr. Sarkozy tried to change the banks targets and lost. This is the big advantage.

You know that most countries (yes, Germany too) had big monetary deficit problems, but throught the pressure of the European Commission the deficit in germany is/had been lower than 3%. The outher countries tried to reach this target too, even if the politicans had to face with problems (saving money is not popular) in their contries. I support this target and in my eyes ever every state debt should be prohibited. All the debts and interests had to be paid by the next generations. Our kids have no chance to create something, because the monetary possibilities are limited.

Michael
I´m not sure if there´s a hell, but I believe in executed murderers.