Share this topic on FacebookShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on Twitter

Author Topic: The Innocence Issue  (Read 2674 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ScoopD (aka: Pam)

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 6551
  • Karma: +2218/-24
  • My BS'ometer is fully charged so bring it on!
The Innocence Issue
« on: July 03, 2008, 01:11:03 PM »
Black Star brought up the innocence issue in alother thread, I figured it deserves it's own thread so here goes.

I am going to name a few cases the anti's cry about and with the help of Dudley Sharps articles I will copy from there.
-----------------
1) Robert Earl Hayes  Nothing about Hayes’ retrial changes the appeals court’s original observation that evidence existed to establish Hayes’ guilt.  Hayes has now been convicted of a nearly identical murder in New York, which was committed prior to the murder in Florida.    Go to

no. 74 at http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DPIC.htm
and pages 36-39 at http://www.floridacapitalcases.state.fl.us/Publications/innocentsproject.pdf
 

2) Sunny Jacobs -- After the shooting, still at the scene of the murders, a trooper asked Jacobs: "Do you like shooting troopers?" Jacobs response:  "We had to."

The best review of the blatant dishonesty of this "Exonerated" case is "The Myth of Innocence", Josh Marquis, The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, v 95, No 2, Winter, 2005, Northwestern University School of Law.

Mr. Marquis can be reached at CoastDA@aol.com, or  503-791-0012.

There is no evidence to support a claim of innocence for Jacobs in the murder of two police officers in Florida. She eventually pled guilty to two counts of second degree murder and was released for time served, after 16 years. Hardly a finding of innocence.     
go to pages 40-46 at www (dot) floridacapitalcases.state.fl.us/Publications/innocentsproject.pdf


3) David Keaton --  Keaton's defense attorney stated that even without Keaton's numerous confessions, that the eyewitness testimony was likely sufficient to convict Keaton for the capital murder.

Through the testimony of numerous eyewitnesses, Keaton's numerous confessions, as well as those of co-defendants, Keaton was sentenced to death. There is no credible claim for innocence in this case of robbery/murder. The case was overturned on appeal. The prosecution chose not to re prosecute for a number of good reasons  --  1. he was no longer subject to the death penalty, because of changes in the law 2. Keaton was sentenced to 20 years in prison for a robbery that he committed ten days prior to the robbery/murder for which he was sentenced to death and 3. illness of witnesses.

Keaton was sentenced to death in 1971, under the old death penalty law. He was on death row for 13 months when the US Supreme Court overturned all death penalty cases in Furman v Georgia.

Read pages 60-68 at www (dot) floridacapitalcases.state.fl.us/Publications/innocentsproject.pdf


4) Delbert Tibbs -- The Florida Supreme Court candidly conceded that it should not have reversed Tibbs' conviction since the evidence was legally sufficient.

The state prosecutor who chose not to retry Tibbs  recently explained to the Florida Commission on Capital Crimes that Tibbs “was never an innocent man wrongfully accused. He was a lucky human being. He was guilty, he was lucky and now he is free."   
See no.10 at http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DPIC.htm
and pages 134-138 at  www(dot)floridacapitalcases.state.fl.us/Publications/innocentsproject.pdf


5) Kerry Max Cook -- The judge, in accepting Cook's no contest plea, said that Cook was guilty of the crime and that the state was capable of proving its case.

This is not a DNA exoneration case.

Mr. Cook was convicted of the murder of Linda Jo Edwards, who was found in her apartment on June 10, 1977, beaten on the head with a plaster statue, stabbed in the throat, chest and back and sexually mutilated. Mr. Cook was arrested 2 months later where he worked as a bartender in Port Arthur. Officers said they found Mr. Cook's fingerprint on Ms. Edwards' apartment door. At first he denied knowing Ms. Edwards. Cook lied. He later said they met at the apartment complex's swimming pool and he went to her apartment. His original conviction resulting in a death sentence was overturned because of prosecutorial misconduct. A 1992 retrial ended in a hung jury. He was again convicted and sentenced to death in 1994. That verdict was overturned in 1996. Before a 4th trial, Mr. Cook pleaded no contest to a reduced charge of murder. He was sentenced to 20 years time served. Mr. Cook took the deal so he could avoid a possible return to death row. By taking the plea, both Cook and his attorneys conceded that this is hardly a case where there is no evidence for guilt and certainly not a case with confirmable actual innocence.
 
for more on this case, contact David Dobbs at david (at) davidedobbs.com


6) Gary Gauger -- Gauger confessed to the murder of his parents. That confession was thrown out based upon the lack of probable cause to arrest him. Gauger's ex-wife and children filed a wrongful death suit against Gauger in the murder of his parents. Gary's brother remains so convinced of Gary's guilt in the murders of their parents, that he has prepared a review of the case which claims to support Gary's guilt, even though there are now two other people jailed for the murders.
 
Furthermore, the trial court erroneously imposed a death sentence. The court granted a motion for reconsideration and vacated the sentence less than ten months later in September 1994. The trial court found that it had not considered all the mitigating evidence and concluded that Gauger should not be sentenced to death. People v. Bull, 705 N.E.2d 824, 843 (Ill. 1999); Chicago Tribune (9/23/94). Gauger served a brief time on death row. He was not properly sentenced to death by the trial court. He should never have been sent to death row because the trial court did not finally sentence him to be executed. Gauger’s case is an example of how consideration of mitigating evidence under current law results in a sentence less than death.
see no. 69 at www(dot)prodeathpenalty.com/DPIC.htm

Some additional articles:

"Cross-Examination for a Drama That Puts the Death Penalty on Trial",  Adam Liptak,  New York Times, January 27, 2005
www(dot)nytimes.com/2005/01/27/theater/newsandfeatures/27pros.htm


"Prosecutors take exception to Court TV film", Richard Willing, USA TODAY, 1/24/05http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-24-exonerated_x.htm


"The Myth of Innocenceon’t believe everything you see on CourtTV", Joshua Marquis, National Review, 1/27/05  www(dot)nationalreview.com/comment/marquis200501270742.as

----------------------------------------  AND
Here are a few more examples of those "innocents" removed from death row.

Clarence Smith -- he was removed from the "innocents" list when it was pointed out that this supposedly innocent defendant was convicted in federal court of charges which included the murder for which he had been acquitted in the Louisiana state court.

Delbert Tibbs - the Florida Supreme Court candidly conceded that it should not have reversed Tibbs' conviction since the evidence was legally sufficient.  The state prosecutor stated that "Tibbs was never an innocent man wrongly accused. He was a lucky human being. He was guilty, he was lucky and now he is free."

Richard Neal Jones-- At the very least, Jones was present at the murder scene and a party to the conspiracy leading to the murder.  His culpability would appear to be no less than that of the actual murderers. 

Jerry Bigelow-- conviction and death sentence were reversed for a reasons unrelated to his guilt.

Patrick Croy-- There was no dispute Croy killed the police officer.

John C. Skelton-- the court majority explained: “ . . . the evidence against appellant leads to a strong suspicion or probability that appellant committed the capital offense . . ."

Dale Johnston-- Prior to retrial, the court excluded incriminating statements Johnston made during his initial interrogation as well as incriminating evidence seized due to the interrogation. The prosecution then dismissed the case.

Jimmy Lee Mathers-- The dissent points out that there was still ample evidence of Mathers’ guilt

Bradley Scott-- the available circumstantial evidence "could only create a suspicion that Scott committed this murder." 

Jay C. Smith-- the appeals court explained, “Our confidence in Smith’s convictions for the murder of Susan Reinert and her two children is not the least bit diminished --  if anything, the courts have repeatedly reaffirmed their conclusion that Smith was “actually guilty”.  Smith’s inclusion on the DPIC List is a “false exoneration” at its most extreme.

Andrew Golden-- the state court noted as follows:   "The finger of suspicion points heavily at Golden. A reasonable juror could conclude that he more likely than not caused his wife's death."

Troy Lee Jones--The California Supreme Court held that while the evidence of Jones’ guilt was not overwhelming, it still suggested Jones’ guilt.

Benjamin Harris--Harris admitted taking turns with Bonds in shooting Turner and admitted having a motive to murder Turner.

Robert Hayes-- Nothing about Hayes’ retrial changes the appeals court’s original observation that evidence existed to establish Hayes’ guilt.

Jeremy Sheets-- The appellate court decision explains that Sheets was convicted of a racially motivated murder of  a young African American girl. The evidence of Sheets’ guilt included the tape-recorded statements of an accomplice named Barnett,  who had died prior to Sheets’ trial. The Nebraska Supreme Court reversed the conviction because Sheets could not cross-examine the dead accomplice.

Larry Osborne-- A friend and potential accomplice, who died prior to trial,  implicated Osborne in a grand jury proceeding. However, this witness then died prior to the first trial. His grand jury testimony was read at Osborne’s first trial and that conviction was reversed because there was no opportunity for Osborne to cross-examine the witness. On retrial, without the grand jury testimony of the dead witness,  the prosecution had insufficient evidence to convince the jury of Osborne’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

A complete review of these and additional "innocent" cases can be found in Footnote 2, below. Most of the case descriptions, above, are edited from Campbell's review (2a).

SUMMARY

No one disputes that innocents are found guilty, within all countries.  However, when scrutinizing death penalty opponents claims, we find that when reviewing the accuracy of verdicts and the post conviction thoroughness of discovering those actually innocent incarcerated, that the US death penalty process may be the most accurate criminal justice sanction in the world. 
 

Under every debated scenario, not executing murderers
will always put many more innocents at risk.



If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine

My reason for supporting capital punishment: My cousin 16 yr. old Amanda Greenwell was murdered in March of 2004 at the hands of serial killer Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Offline Jeff1857

  • Fanatic
  • ***
  • Posts: 9433
  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 04:01:45 PM »
I hear all this innocent executed mumbo jumbo. Still never heard of a supposed innocent executed one that has been proven to be innocent. Amnesty Intl aka Scumbag Central counts all of these above in Pam's most awesome post as "exonerations". In her post they are not exonerations in fact. I know that one AI thughugger lover when presented with facts like this all the response was "well 1 is too many". They backstroke more than Mark Spitz. The thing that gets me the most though is on these devoted websites the thughuggers will love to grasp. A scumbag says I'm innocent and of course it's gospel or some insignificant thing to do with the case, it's like they come out like termites saying "He didn't get a fair trial" all that blah blah crap. But hey, it gives the thughuggers a chance to congregate to hear from these "exonerated" <cough> thugs and gives a chance for these thugs to get an appearance fee and maybe a little action on the side from the groupies. Free enterprise system I suppose.  ???

Offline Henrik - Sweden

  • Fanatic
  • ***
  • Posts: 624
  • Karma: +368/-2
  • Go pro? No!
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 01:40:39 AM »
Hey Pam, so much for "long posts"!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Black Star

  • Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-3
  • I try not to judge
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 04:05:01 AM »
Pam, do you really reckon I will read all this? First and forall, it is as biased as what they write on the anti-sites.
Secondly, it is not an answer to my statement at all. For this, I don't see what I could add to this to contribute to this thread, without being called names by users who feel a bit uncomfortable with what I am writing.

They think I'm here to "shock" people. Oh dear me... But on the other hand, if I did, it means my words weren't meaningless afterall. For there is no use in argueing with an idiot, is there?

If you don't believe that 1 inmate might ve been mistakingly executed out of the 1100 since '76, then you must be naive. If there are innocent people locked up in jail, then there must be at least 1 who has been executed wrongly. And that, to me, is one too many. The fact that you list a whole bunge of people means this IS in fact an issue. Did you really have to wait for this waster (me) to discuss it? So you know for sure, you would even bet your life on it they are all guilty indeed? Of course you do, silly me.

You say: Hey, look, 0.001% of our prison population kills again, even when in jail! Well, I say: Hey, 0.01% of the executed imates were innocent, lets abolish executions! That was my point. I don't see how your biased stories written by pro's will convince me otherwise. I have a strong feeling that the case of Michael James Perry stinks, and not just a little bit. Even journalists who support CP, but who have given the case a proper look, have their doubts now. I personnaly, as his ex scumpal, believe he might be. Once again the alleged accomplice gets off with life, I wonder why. And that is what bothers me about your system, not the DP as such, but the correctional system. Only there for the rich and the powerful. Yeah yeah, I am a loony, I know already. I am not American, and don't forget: God Blesses America.

Black Star

"I think you're spending too much time with your Pro-buddies" Michael Perry, Texas DR.

Offline pizzpoor

  • Fanatic
  • ***
  • Posts: 965
  • Karma: +66/-3
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 05:55:55 AM »
IF IF IF.....A bullfrog had wings it wouldnt crack his nutz every time he hops....Do you know of a single innocent person executed for a murder that was proved that he/she did not commit or have any part or knowledge of being committed? On the other hand, I know of many criminals who most certainly have been guilty of murder and given a pass for whatever reason not involving their guilt....Only to murder again, either inside prison or in some cases released from prison only to murder again.   

Offline Black Star

  • Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-3
  • I try not to judge
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 06:20:57 AM »
IF IF IF.....A bullfrog had wings it wouldnt crack his nutz every time he hops....Do you know of a single innocent person executed for a murder that was proved that he/she did not commit or have any part or knowledge of being committed? On the other hand, I know of many criminals who most certainly have been guilty of murder and given a pass for whatever reason not involving their guilt....Only to murder again, either inside prison or in some cases released from prison only to murder again.   


No, I don't, to be honest. But don't twist it. You're saying now: prove to me that the CP is NOT an accurate system.
The point is, you have to prove that your system works and not the other way round. Isn't this the title of this sub-forum? "Why CP works?"

When a medicine is invented, and 1 person (human guinea pig) dies, but 1.000.000 get cured, the substance will under no circumstance be released. So YOU have to prove to me your system is as accurate as you claim it is.
... But I forgot, in your State you are guilty till proven innocent ... Good system, folks!



To start with, make sure celeb murderers such as OJ Simpson also get what they deserve. Sorry, I forgot, he MUST be innocent since they didn't convict him in your flawless system  :o

Conservative America, the country where you can buy guns on every corner of the street, where the murder rate is the highest in the world... They're gonna teach us some human rights. Ridiculous.

Black Star
"I think you're spending too much time with your Pro-buddies" Michael Perry, Texas DR.

Offline Granny B

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • Karma: +5609/-18
  • I'd like to help U out. Which way did U come in?
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 06:48:13 AM »
"They think I'm here to "shock" people. Oh dear me... But on the other hand, if I did, it means my words weren't meaningless afterall. For there is no use in argueing with an idiot, is there?"

NOPE!  ::)
" Closure? Closure is a misused word in the English language.  There is no such thing as closure for the family of a murder victim.  There will never be any closure for the death of our loved ones until we are dead ourselves.  The families have a lifetime sentence of anguish and sadness." 
Susan Levy

Offline ScoopD (aka: Pam)

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 6551
  • Karma: +2218/-24
  • My BS'ometer is fully charged so bring it on!
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 07:54:30 AM »
Hey Pam, so much for "long posts"!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Touche'!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D


If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine

My reason for supporting capital punishment: My cousin 16 yr. old Amanda Greenwell was murdered in March of 2004 at the hands of serial killer Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Offline Black Star

  • Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-3
  • I try not to judge
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 09:31:34 AM »
"They think I'm here to "shock" people. Oh dear me... But on the other hand, if I did, it means my words weren't meaningless afterall. For there is no use in argueing with an idiot, is there?"

NOPE!  ::)

Bit late don't you think, GOB.

No, on a serious note. Instead of reading insults, I'd rather read smashing


Bit late now, don't you think, you've already done the damage, Nan of Brandon! ;)

No, on a serious note. Instead of reading insults, I'd rather read smashing arguements. I express my humble opinion, not God's Truth.
I expected more of you people. Maybe my views on this matter are miles away from yours, tant pis, but you're not making much of an effort, are you.

When I introduced myself, I felt very welcome. Now I know why, coz I said some things you wanted to hear; or better: I kept the things you didn't want to hear to myself. In This respect, may I note that GOB only came to play when I was unintendingly upsetting her (and others)?
Apparently some of you 'hard core' pro's don't even consider it's worth to convince undecided people like me, even when I'm saying I'm not 100% determined on the subject. Or is it still about that one expression I took back?

I won't leave this site, coz it contains some valuable info on cases. I will just ignore your bitter comments. I think this is best for all.

Black Star

"I think you're spending too much time with your Pro-buddies" Michael Perry, Texas DR.

Offline ScoopD (aka: Pam)

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 6551
  • Karma: +2218/-24
  • My BS'ometer is fully charged so bring it on!
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 10:01:48 AM »
Black Star, you're a scumpal. You're a thughugging anti, your intro post was simply you being a wolf in sheeps clothing. You waited for your moment to pounce your prey (us). Whatever your reasons, I really don't give a damn.  You say it is up to us to prove that our system works. You are so wrong dear, we have NOTHING to prove. We have the death penalty as law. You anti's have everything to prove if you want to see it abolished. You go ahead and fight your battle, and in the meantime we will still be here reminding the world exactly what your scummy thug friends have done.


If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine

My reason for supporting capital punishment: My cousin 16 yr. old Amanda Greenwell was murdered in March of 2004 at the hands of serial killer Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Offline ScoopD (aka: Pam)

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 6551
  • Karma: +2218/-24
  • My BS'ometer is fully charged so bring it on!
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 10:05:21 AM »
oh and PS..   the information I posted above is NOT biased, IT IS FACT - written in court documents.  Can you show me where it is written in ANY court document that an innocent has been executed since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976?  Show me just one document from a court of law here in the US.   Just ONE.


If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine

My reason for supporting capital punishment: My cousin 16 yr. old Amanda Greenwell was murdered in March of 2004 at the hands of serial killer Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Offline ScoopD (aka: Pam)

  • Administrator
  • Fanatic
  • *****
  • Posts: 6551
  • Karma: +2218/-24
  • My BS'ometer is fully charged so bring it on!
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 10:22:11 AM »
Damn.........  another PS...

To answer your question from the other thread...........

Dear Pammee, hate me once again for my modest reply, but:

If a few cases in which an inmate kills another one is sufficient proof to you that CP works: fine by me.
But what do you make of this:
If in a few cases an innocent person is being executed, that's proof to anti's that CP doesn't work.


Both opinions are not entirely right to me.


Where are the few cases that an innocent has been executed? Like I said in my post just above this one, show me court documents for just ONE case.  That's all I am asking, show me the document and I will give you a replay. Until then, I stand by my belief that no innocent person has been executed since the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1976.

TDCJ makes available the list of inmates removed from death row by means other than execution. Therefore, I would ask you to go take a look at how many. On average for every 4 inmates put on the row, one is removed. The system works! The guilty are executed. Hell, we even throw you anti-dawgs a bone from time to time and let a serial killer or two or five have LWOP. So shut the hell up already about the innocent issue.

NEXTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT   >:(


If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine

My reason for supporting capital punishment: My cousin 16 yr. old Amanda Greenwell was murdered in March of 2004 at the hands of serial killer Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Offline pizzpoor

  • Fanatic
  • ***
  • Posts: 965
  • Karma: +66/-3
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2008, 10:30:50 AM »
IF IF IF.....A bullfrog had wings it wouldnt crack his nutz every time he hops....Do you know of a single innocent person executed for a murder that was proved that he/she did not commit or have any part or knowledge of being committed? On the other hand, I know of many criminals who most certainly have been guilty of murder and given a pass for whatever reason not involving their guilt....Only to murder again, either inside prison or in some cases released from prison only to murder again.   


No, I don't, to be honest. But don't twist it. You're saying now: prove to me that the CP is NOT an accurate system.
The point is, you have to prove that your system works and not the other way round. Isn't this the title of this sub-forum? "Why CP works?"

When a medicine is invented, and 1 person (human guinea pig) dies, but 1.000.000 get cured, the substance will under no circumstance be released. So YOU have to prove to me your system is as accurate as you claim it is.
... But I forgot, in your State you are guilty till proven innocent ... Good system, folks!



To start with, make sure celeb murderers such as OJ Simpson also get what they deserve. Sorry, I forgot, he MUST be innocent since they didn't convict him in your flawless system  :o

Conservative America, the country where you can buy guns on every corner of the street, where the murder rate is the highest in the world... They're gonna teach us some human rights. Ridiculous.

Black Star


OH but I CAN prove that the DP is 100 percent effective 100 percent of the time when it is used...Unless the offender can be resurrected from Hell to kill again, they are done. You see, in this system, if there is a reasonable doubt the suspect (criminal) goes free.  OJ included.  Maybe he WAS guilty.  But in a trial by a jury of peers, it was determined he wasnt.  There is no need to twist anything....You and all the others who use this argument DO need to show us an example as is the title of this thread, I havent seen a legit example yet by any of you.  Your arguments are hypothetical....The crimes comitted by these murderers on DR that you support .... are not.
As for teaching you some human rights: You got me there...Im not in favor of "teaching" those who can not learn anything at all....But I cant help but notice, with the exception of Britain, many of you (Europeans especially, but this is also true most places in the world)  are happy to take any help we send...in fact, you seem to EXPECT it as your God given right... but never seem to reciprocate when the need arises here,  except to offer advice....Like youre in any position to HAVE credible useful advice...

Offline Black Star

  • Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-3
  • I try not to judge
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 10:35:31 AM »
Black Star, you're a scumpal. You're a thughugging anti, your intro post was simply you being a wolf in sheeps clothing. You waited for your moment to pounce your prey (us). Whatever your reasons, I really don't give a damn.  You say it is up to us to prove that our system works. You are so wrong dear, we have NOTHING to prove. We have the death penalty as law. You anti's have everything to prove if you want to see it abolished. You go ahead and fight your battle, and in the meantime we will still be here reminding the world exactly what your scummy thug friends have done.


Sorry honey, maybe you are right. Thanks to this site I have only come to a conclusion: I am indeed an 'anti' (I hate that 'anti'word!) if you want me to be one  ???

I am pro human rights.
Sure you're gonna say: but what about the victims rights?! And you are right, but sadly I must say there is nothing else we can do for them. Yes, we have to honour them, but I don't think this has to include another death.
If this sounds harsh to you, I am sorry, forgive me for not having lost a member of my familiy the way you did! But this is I am afraid the way a lot of people think of CP. And remember what I said in my introduction, doesn't it depend on which side of the fence you're on? I wouldn't want to go through this. So I am a fencesitter, whatever you say. But I lean more towards the 'anti's when it comes to the aspects I just described.

For MJP I just reckon he migt indeed be a victim, I don't think I'll ever know. I am almost for sure he knows about the case. He just must do. But I believe he didn't do it. He doesn't diserve to die. And was this topic not ment for innocence cases?

But does this all mean that I defend ALL of them?? No, regardless my opinion on the DP, I don't. Do I want to stop the circle of violence (there you have it)? Yes.
For one I am even more in favour of a just system. And that is what the US lacks, that nation that should indeed maybe set an example, and not only by economical/military means.
I am not anti-American people, believe you me, (not anti any race/religion/system whatsoever!), but your correctional system is NOT better than our, sometimes too lenient system! That's what I wanted to talk about.

I believe in a merciful God, I believe in good people who don't do what bad people do. May sound like Mockinbird when you were little, but that sais it all to me. 

Black Star

"I think you're spending too much time with your Pro-buddies" Michael Perry, Texas DR.

Offline Black Star

  • Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-3
  • I try not to judge
Re: The Innocence Issue
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2008, 11:01:32 AM »
Pam, cases are literally burried. I haven't been following cases for decades...

I can tell you now, I can give you two doubtful cases. Darlie Routier and MJP, for all I know. And do you remember every single case back to '76?

Furthermore, no matter what case, some people have been killed when they were no bloody "threat to society" behind bars. Afterall, isn't that what you're always on about? The reason to get rid of them? Is it not about time to admit to it that is about vengeance, eye for an eye, and not to 'honour' the loved ones?
I believe that in this respect KFT was one example, and you can tell me what you want. She was guilty, but was not a treat, not in a million years!

I believe in God's will. And we should NEVER decide over a human beings life! Let it be abortion, or 80% of the suicides on demand (euthanesia).

Amen. You win.   :)
"I think you're spending too much time with your Pro-buddies" Michael Perry, Texas DR.