Well, I'm No Arthur Conan Doyle, but....

[UKTom]

Guys this seems to have really spiralled out of control and there really is no need!

The DP is a divisive issue and will therefore attract heated debate/conversation from time to time. Sir Daniel was expressing an opinion which he is saying he is entitled to, largely because the website rules claim “Discussions and debates are a major part of this site, opposing views are always welcome and we encourage everyone to join.’”. He is simply requesting clarity on the issue:

1)   If those rules apply then mature and reasoned replies to differing opinions should be promoted. If you don’t want to debate (i.e. because you have done the debate countless times before) then stand aside and allow another member to take the reigns (should any wish to). But responding by calling someone Sir Dickbag (as Seany did) or calling him a Troll (as kirschkorn, ScoopD, Frenchy and turboprinz have) or wishing that Sir Daniel lost a loved one to a brutal murder is not following the rules allowing for open discussion.
2)   The rules be changed making it clear that it is a Pro-DP site ONLY

If point 2 applies then im sure Sir Daniel will respectfully take his leave.

In the original thread (that kick started this whole circus) Sir Daniel was simply expressing an opinion that a mother losing her son through an execution is still a heavy burden for her. He also dabbled with the idea of exploring LWOP. He made it abundantly clear that he was Pro-DP and that the paramount issue was the rights and feelings of the victims (as we all do). I struggle to see any personal attack against any poster there

But I also struggle to see how the phrase “Sir Dickbag” isn’t a personal attack.

Either way this whole situation needs to be calmed down a bit.

[Russki]

Sir Daniel has clearly shown who he is after his puerile Sherlock post. Personally, I do not believe that “Discussions and debates are a major part of this site, opposing views are always welcome and we encourage everyone to join.’ should be on the home page.

The death penalty is an issue which you quite rightly say attracts heated debate. Pointless debate in my view, as neither side will change their stance.

I was a liberal anti DP politician until my adopted daughter was raped and murdered. The perpetrator was released in just under 7 years and now lives on my taxes.

That is why I posted, clumsily I admit, that those who are against the DP should have a family member killed and then see how they feel.

Sir Daniel hijacked a thread to start spouting his views. I actually do not believe that he is pro DP whatever he says.


"Personally, I have no issue with someone being lethally injected for committing acts of violent and premeditated murder, none at all, but those poor, innocent families that are left behind. As if they haven't suffered enough already by having a convicted killer in the family, we can only surmise at the unimaginable pain they experience when their family member is put to death.


Focus solely on the crimes of these vicious and callous murderers and for many of us it is really quite easy to support the death penalty. If we stop for a moment, though, and consider the families of these killers in a way that they themselves never did when they committed their murderous acts, we might just be satisfied with life in prison without parole, at least, that's my view."

There are many on this forum who have lost loved ones through murder. You may understand why it is irritating to read "poor, innocent families that are left behind" when families of murder victims have suffered years longer and were entirely innocent.

Murderers bring a blight to the familes of victims and also to their own house.

I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LINE OF ARGUEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ACTUALLY BLAMING ME FOR MY CRUELTY IN WISHING THE MURDERER TO BE KILLED.

It is true that personally, discussing this issue with anti DP people is in my mind pointless and not what I understand this forum is about. If people wish to debate this matter, go and have fun in a debates soc. That is where it belongs.

“Sir Dickbag” is indeed a personal attack and frankly he got off rather lightly considering his post. I for one do not wish to 'debate' this issue with those who are just as closed in their own beliefs as I am in mine. We do have some anti DP members who are indeed accepted as part of the family because they are always respectful and consider the feelings of others on this board. Those who turn up and within a few moments start supporting LWOP or are anti DP are without question those who are trying to disrupt the forum. They are in short, TROLLS.

It is also true that one or two members of this board may well thank you and Sir Dickbag but they are low posters and in my mind very suspect too.

No anti has ever offered a satisfactory way in which LWOP can be an absolute guarantee that a murderer will ever not kill again in prison or that they will never be released.

It only take a few liberal politicians to let them out again or accountants who want to clear the prisons.

That is it, as far as I am concerned. I do not have enough heartbeats left to waste any more time 'debating'.

[UKTom]

I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LINE OF ARGUEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ACTUALLY BLAMING ME FOR MY CRUELTY IN WISHING THE MURDERER TO BE KILLED.

I don’t think anyone would blame any victim (or there family) such as yourself for holding any view over the DP. I would also expect the argument for pursuing the DP to be one based on justice. Furthermore it is the state and 12 “angry men” who decide and interpret the states legislation. No element of blame, and rightly so.

A useful case in point is the awful tragedy of James Byrd Jnr. A victim of a horrendous ordeal that should sicken anyone and made worse by the fact that its justification was based on the colour of his skin. Chained up and dragged behind a truck for miles until dead is a crime that I will never forget.

But on the day of the sentencing phase. The Brewer family (family of Lawrence Brewer – since executed) met with the Byrd family outside the court and said that ‘he was awfully embarrassed’ and wish that they had met under different circumstances. Mr Brewer Snr then pleaded for his sons mercy saying "This family is torn apart, as I'm sure the Byrd family is," and "To take his life is more than this family can bear." After his testimony he said that pleading for his sons life was worse than anything he had experienced including his years fighting in Vietnam.

The Byrd family responded outside the courthouse by saying "There's no need to blame them for what their son did." Furthermore with regards to why the family pleaded for his mercy the sister said "I can understand that part of it”.

One of America’s most heinous crimes and both families understood and respected each other stance. Both recognised they were victims and neither had any animosity for requesting death (as the Byrd family did) or requesting mercy (as the Brewer family did).

Obviously on a case by case basis there will some instances where the family is not as innocent, i.e. as Granny B wrote in another topic with her personal case.

Using a sweeping brush that all families of murderers are just as guilty or deserve no thought is an unfair opinion. One poster on this forum stated that the families of murderers are just as bad as ‘thug lovers’. He, and others who hold it, are entitled to that opinion but Sir Daniel should not be chastised for holding his opinion that there can be other victims.

But as you say Frenchy you wish the spiel on the front of the website to be changed to make it clear that debate is not an option here. However Kirchkorn as invited Sir Daniel to debate. I think a final rule for all needs to be laid down on this issue before more unnecessary and hurtful comments are made. 

[Henrik - Sweden]

I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LINE OF ARGUEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ACTUALLY BLAMING ME FOR MY CRUELTY IN WISHING THE MURDERER TO BE KILLED.

I don’t think anyone would blame any victim (or there family) such as yourself for holding any view over the DP. I would also expect the argument for pursuing the DP to be one based on justice. Furthermore it is the state and 12 “angry men” who decide and interpret the states legislation. No element of blame, and rightly so.

A useful case in point is the awful tragedy of James Byrd Jnr. A victim of a horrendous ordeal that should sicken anyone and made worse by the fact that its justification was based on the colour of his skin. Chained up and dragged behind a truck for miles until dead is a crime that I will never forget.

But on the day of the sentencing phase. The Brewer family (family of Lawrence Brewer – since executed) met with the Byrd family outside the court and said that ‘he was awfully embarrassed’ and wish that they had met under different circumstances. Mr Brewer Snr then pleaded for his sons mercy saying "This family is torn apart, as I'm sure the Byrd family is," and "To take his life is more than this family can bear." After his testimony he said that pleading for his sons life was worse than anything he had experienced including his years fighting in Vietnam.

The Byrd family responded outside the courthouse by saying "There's no need to blame them for what their son did." Furthermore with regards to why the family pleaded for his mercy the sister said "I can understand that part of it”.

One of America’s most heinous crimes and both families understood and respected each other stance. Both recognised they were victims and neither had any animosity for requesting death (as the Byrd family did) or requesting mercy (as the Brewer family did).

Obviously on a case by case basis there will some instances where the family is not as innocent, i.e. as Granny B wrote in another topic with her personal case.

Using a sweeping brush that all families of murderers are just as guilty or deserve no thought is an unfair opinion. One poster on this forum stated that the families of murderers are just as bad as ‘thug lovers’. He, and others who hold it, are entitled to that opinion but Sir Daniel should not be chastised for holding his opinion that there can be other victims.

But as you say Frenchy you wish the spiel on the front of the website to be changed to make it clear that debate is not an option here. However Kirchkorn as invited Sir Daniel to debate. I think a final rule for all needs to be laid down on this issue before more unnecessary and hurtful comments are made.

I agree and I believe I have stated almost exactly the same point of view in some earlier topic. Most of the problem lies in the fact that the words expressed on the start page does not fit with how - at least it seems so - most of the active members want things to be in this forum.

[Russki]

I agree Hendrik. Over and over the same old arguements with yet another anti. There is one thing to inform about the DP but I do not think the forum should play at being a Uni debate society.

PTO at least has the sense to stop this and stick to its agenda.

[Hutchsmash]

I agree Frenchy my man.  I feel to strongly about my beliefs to be swayed by what I see as touchy feely excuses for murderers.  He peed the bed, his mommy didn't love him right, his funny uncle touch is penis.... etc.  All things that happen to thousands of folks all the time and the great majority never become murderers.  Debate on this topic, like several others I will not mention, is difficult at best because of the emotional aspect to it that many of us who have been affected by murderous douchebags are all to familiar with.  I enjoy this site because we all share a common view and give/recieve support for our problems.  I will admit that I too enjoy taking apart the occasional troll, but always after they show their true colors.  If a troll wishes to have a good discussion, I am all about that, however as soon as I am told I can't feel a what I feel because, (insert lame ass anti rationale here), then yes I will get defensive and attack.

This site has been great for me to get my story out as well as to help me deal with my problems.  In the end we are all too vested in our own point of views to be swayed by silly emotional and irrelevent anti arguements (state sponsored murder, killing somebody for killing isn't right, his puppy will miss him, blah blah blah...).  So I say let's sit back and enjoy each other as well as the trolls, because let's face it, it gets rather dull here without a troll to play with.

Hutch

[Jase]

unwritten rule of this board #1


Would Pam see the value in the post pro or con? If so is it of value to the rest of us who actually want to be here for education/healing/other valid reasons....If not don't bother with it!!!

[ggbop]

He lost my interest when he tried to argue keeping Carty off the table.  Sod that for a game of soldiers.

I have long since stopped arguing with out and out trolls.  There is no point in trying to change their opinions or beliefs.  After all, I wouldn't allow them to change mine.

[UKTom]

unwritten rule of this board #1


Would Pam see the value in the post pro or con? If so is it of value to the rest of us who actually want to be here for education/healing/other valid reasons....If not don't bother with it!!!

An “unwritten rule” is precisely why we are in this position of confusion. Also judging the standard of every post against the personal opinion of 1 person isn’t likely to help either. No one, especially newcomers to the board, can truly know that 1 persons feelings over a given topic. Furthermore anyone can change there views for a number of reasons. Certainty is what is needed here.

Frenchy and a few others request there be no debating, which is fine. Others seem more open to it.

So the website should either read:

“Welcome to Off2DR…..Please note that this is a Pro-DP site used for support and has no affiliation with debate or discussion of the death penalty”

Or

“Welcome to Off2DR….Please note we welcome all views and opinions. Debate is allowed so long as posts remain within the confines of the rules”

Rules:

1)   Posts cannot be offensive: personal attacks against the poster, racism, sexism etc…Any offensive post can be brought to the attention of our administrators against any poster and will be dealt with fairly, justly and in an unbiased fashion.

Once everyone knows where they stand then the hurtful comments will stop…one would hope.

[Russki]

UK Tom. After 20 posts you are trying to reorganise this forum. You are really pushing it as far as I am concerned.

[Henrik - Sweden]

UK Tom. After 20 posts you are trying to reorganise this forum. You are really pushing it as far as I am concerned.

I don't think that is a fair criticism. He's just pointing out that this forum is acting in another way than what is stated when you enter this page. You should all realise that by doing this you open up yourselves to accusations about hypocrisy and similar stuff. And in all honesty those accusations aren't unfair. Every new anti I have seen this last year have been immediately attacked - no matter how respectful their initial words and tone have been.

Either antis really should be welcomed as long as they stick to the rules and don't write offensive posts (in the true sense of this word - I can't accept that claiming an anti point of view is offensive by definition)...

...or the site should be transformed as suggested: A pro-DP site where anti's can enter but at their own risk and without expecting any politeness what so ever.  It's easy - just a couple of word's that need to be changed.

[Russki]

You are probably right Henrik.

[PAPASTALKIN]

Great one boss. I love the new topic. And Frenchy if you have a Troll zapping software I would love to buy it.

[k"KKK"hirschkorn]

"Personally, I have no issue with someone being lethally injected for committing acts of violent and premeditated murder, none at all, but those poor, innocent families that are left behind. As if they haven't suffered enough already by having a convicted killer in the family, we can only surmise at the unimaginable pain they experience when their family member is put to death.

I cant agree more. People that have not lost a loved one have no clue of the pain. I dont have a clue, But I choose to understand. I know what I would want if it  did happen.


Focus solely on the crimes of these vicious and callous murderers and for many of us it is really quite easy to support the death penalty. If we stop for a moment, though, and consider the families of these killers in a way that they themselves never did when they committed their murderous acts, we might just be satisfied with life in prison without parole, at least, that's my view."

It is pure BS How the victims are in a major way forgotten about. Its all about the POS and his rights.. What rights.. You stole a loved one..And for what ?? I am so glade we do what we can here to honor justice. Hell even our anti's beleave in justice.

Any way I dont see any thing wrong with debate.. Thing is many of the antis cant do that. They just cant get past, the fact deep down there wrong on many level's.

[JTiscool]

Again, I'm seeing personal attacks here.  Knowing the rules say attack the message, not the person, I'm sincerely hoping an administrator will take appropriate action...  I think this should apply to ALL users, and should not be ignored out of convenience to attack users of differing viewpoints.

Considering he posted in this thread first and attack 2 members outright in his post why are you not scolding Sir Daniel for it?