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Messages - UKTom

on: June 13, 2012, 02:41:50 AM 1 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Richard A. Leavitt - ID - 6/12/12

hello to everyone, 1st post on here and maybe a stupid question but why did the state need to give him mild sedatives where other states do not ? And what classes as mild ? I know missouri makes you have an antihistermine which helps the drugs flow, sorry for the weird question but just curious if he was sorta out of it or was very concious of what was happening
 :-X


Haywire, the most common drug used is Ativan which is an anti-anxiety drug. As you say an antihistamine is widely used as well, with the most common being Vistaril.

Out of the 38 states with the DP….19 offers a form of sedative.

Main points that are raised by their use:

1)   It keeps the condemned docile which some believe prevents unnecessary torture being tantamount to “cruel and unusual” punishment
2)   It helps the prison staff deal with the execution procedure as the condemned is more compliant. This reduces the burden and stress upon the prison staff.
3)   Some believe it takes away from the course of justice because most crimes committed are not done under sedated medication.
4)   Some believe it paints an unrealistic picture of the event as it shows the world (via media witnesses) that death is calm.
5)   Sedatives are generally administered by physicians or doctors and it brings up the whole Hippocratic Oath debate.

Hopefully that helps answer your questions (and welcome)

on: June 01, 2012, 05:25:25 AM 2 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: Jury Directions

I wonder if any direction is given as to personal feelings on the dp. I also assume it would have to be a majority vote for the dp! Certainly food for thought!


A stark difference between the U.S legal system and a lot of other developed countries system is the Jury selection process. A random pool of potential jurors is submitted to the prosecution and defence. The prosecution and defence are then given a set number of “strikes” which allows them to remove a particular person from the pool.

The judge will also brief each potential juror that he/she has to remain impartial and not allow personal/emotive/political motives to cloud their judgement.

It is therefore common to find most potential jurors with strong Pro or Anti feelings towards the DP to be struck off as being a risk to impartiality.

When it comes down to it during the sentencing phase it should simply be:

1)   More aggravating factors = DP
2)   More mitigating circumstances = LWOP

But of course the DP being the divisive issue that it is means that no Juror can be expected to be completely immune from personal feelings over it.

on: May 31, 2012, 01:22:21 AM 3 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: Jury Directions

Each state is different, but largely (as I understand it) the process can be simplified to:

1)   The District Attorney will meet with council for the defence and attempt to find what should be pursued (i.e. imprisonment or DP). The gravity and nature of the crime could lend itself to being a prosecuted as a DP case.

2)   The first trial is the “Guilt/Innocence” phase. The Jury is simply directed to assess the evidence on the accused’s culpability for that particular crime only. A Majority decision based on “beyond reasonable doubt” test will determine the outcome.

3)   Should guilt be established then it moves onto the “Penalty/Sentencing” phase. Here the Jury will listen the aggravating factors (put forward by the DA) and mitigating factors (put forward by the defense). It is at this stage that you will see arguments about the accused’s remorse, abusive childhood, drug/alcohol abuse and mental competency. The Jury is simply directed to weigh on aggravating Vs. mitigating and if one outweighs the other then that wins. For instance should the aggravating circumstances outweigh the mitigating then DP will be recommended. Aggravating = DP and mitigating = Imprisonment.

4)   The judge will then follow the recommendation of the Jury to select DP or imprisonment.

Hopefully that’s helpful and you weren’t requesting info about jury selection? (or voire dire as you may have seen it written).

on: May 30, 2012, 05:32:07 AM 4 Forum Rules and Information / Introductions / Re: Hello from down under!

Hi Sam,

A genuine introduction which will be well received by all im sure. Look forward to reading your posts!

on: May 30, 2012, 05:27:36 AM 5 Off Topic / Off Topic - Anything / Re: Hospice has been brought in..... Dad not doing well.

Sorry to hear that ICE. A very difficult time but sounds like you have a supportive family! As you say your father no longer needs to suffer. So keep strong with your family!

on: May 18, 2012, 08:19:28 AM 6 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: Another "innocent" executed?

It's so hard to tell what's real and what's not nowadays @_@


The fact that you are willing to question it shows maturity and intelligence. All you can do is make an informed decision. Always be sceptical of every source you read from….and as long as you can justify your opinion to yourself then as Bob Marley says ‘everything is guna be alright’. 

on: May 18, 2012, 02:21:19 AM 7 Off Topic / Off Topic - Anything / Re: Is this the coolest car?

I think you must have had a different model. Well you would be particularly angry if it wasn’t. The car I posted has just sold at auction for £4Million! Simply down to its rarity.

on: May 18, 2012, 01:33:03 AM 8 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Steven Staley - TX - 5/16/2012 STAYED!!

As some already have pointed out: There is quite often confusion in threads because of the fact we all tend to mix up what we think is MORALLY right with what we think is LEGALLY right. Of course it must be ok to express and discuss both kind of opinions in the same thread, but to respond to a post that discusses the legal aspect with something like "HEY I don't care, just fry the scumbag!" is quite pointless and just destroys the possibilities for a sound debate IMHO. To tell somebody that can hardly be considered "bullying".

The Staley case is interesting in a legal context so it would be nice if we could continue to discuss that instead of discussing whether board member 1 or 2 had the right to say A or B.


Absolutely spot on Henrik…don’t see you post much? 

on: May 18, 2012, 01:30:21 AM 9 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: from yahho, we executed an innocent man.....

The fact  any one  reads it is odd..  I care  more about  cats and dog's that are needlessly put down then I do about some inmate.


.  Not worth reading so I wont. He is dead.


I translated both of those statements to be simply very dismissive of the issue without even considering all the facts. I am Pro but how is anyone going to debate correctly if we haven’t read/understood the anti’s position. How can there position be refuted if we don’t even stop to look at the points they raise. Simply saying ‘well prove it’ and then refuse to read any information surrounding a claim for innocence is going to be destroyed in any debate. And with more States putting the issue of the DP on the ballots…I think its quite useful to ‘educate the uninformed’.

I am sick of your constant BS about  the scum and there family's. It seems to me you could care less about the people that are Murdered. I will never understand why or how some can be so in love with a scum bag death row looser. 


So whilst I am warned I would request that posts like the above be warned too. This is post 101 when any issue/topic becomes too heated for some posters. Although im Pro…I have yet again been accused of ‘caring about scum’ and that I don’t ‘care about the murdered’. Slanderous to say the least. This post repeats itself over and over again yet is never reprimanded.

It is clear that kirsch does not like me or my posts. And I too struggle to understand a number of his. So I think the safe route before it escalates is simply to invoke Rule 5:

“We have an ignore feature.  In the bottom right hand corner of every post you will see a link titled "ignore".  If you have personal issues with another member we strongly suggest you use this feature so that you will no longer see any posts made by that individual.”

I would suggest that kirsch do the same.

on: May 17, 2012, 08:55:19 AM 10 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: from yahho, we executed an innocent man.....

Yea again.  Not worth reading so I wont. He is dead. He had/has been proven time and time again to be the right person. The more we pay any dead scum bag att. the more the real victim(s) is forgotten.


You may have a flippant attitude towards the executing of innocent people but I don’t. That is something we differ on (perhaps agree to disagree?). I believe in fair and correct justice.  So read it/don’t read it…no one cares either way.

on: May 17, 2012, 07:30:45 AM 11 Off Topic / Off Topic - Anything / Re: Is this the coolest car?

Wow - very jealous! Can i inquire as to what profession you had that allowed you to drive one of only 2 Ferrari's of its kind? Or is the Mille Miglia a slightly different model to the one i found?

on: May 17, 2012, 06:05:22 AM 12 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Steven Staley - TX - 5/16/2012 STAYED!!

Spot on Naviator!

on: May 17, 2012, 05:56:04 AM 13 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: from yahho, we executed an innocent man.....

This has been the best 'break down' of the main crux of the report i have come across thus far:

The Wrong Carlos: Texas' Fatal Error----Groundbreaking Columbia law school study sets out in shocking detail the flaws that led to Carlos DeLuna's execution in 1989.


A few years ago, Antonin Scalia, 1 of the 9 justices on the US supreme court, made a bold statement. There has not been, he said, "a single case - not one - in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit. If such an event had occurred - the innocent's name would be shouted from the rooftops."

Scalia may have to eat his words. It is now clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit, and his name - Carlos DeLuna - is being shouted from the rooftops of the Columbia Human Rights Law Review. The august journal has cleared its entire spring edition, doubling its normal size to 436 pages, to carry an extraordinary investigation by a Columbia law school professor and his students.

The book sets out in precise and shocking detail how an innocent man was sent to his death on 8 December 1989, courtesy of the state of Texas. Los Tocayos Carlos: An Anatomy of a Wrongful Execution, is based on six years of intensive detective work by Professor James Liebman and 12 students.

Starting in 2004, they meticulously chased down every possible lead in the case, interviewing more than 100 witnesses, perusing about 900 pieces of source material and poring over crime scene photographs and legal documents that, when stacked, stand over 10ft high.

What they discovered stunned even Liebman, who, as an expert in America's use of capital punishment, was well versed in its flaws. "It was a house of cards. We found that everything that could go wrong did go wrong," he says.

Carlos DeLuna was arrested, aged 20, on 4 February 1983 for the brutal murder of a young woman, Wanda Lopez. She had been stabbed once through the left breast with an 8in lock-blade buck knife which had cut an artery causing her to bleed to death.

From the moment of his arrest until the day of his death by lethal injection six years later, DeLuna consistently protested he was innocent. He went further - he said that though he hadn't committed the murder, he knew who had. He even named the culprit: a notoriously violent criminal called Carlos Hernandez.

The 2 Carloses were not just namesakes - or tocayos in Spanish, as referenced in the title of the Columbia book. They were the same height and weight, and looked so alike that they were sometimes mistaken for twins. When Carlos Hernandez's lawyer saw pictures of the two men, he confused one for the other, as did DeLuna's sister Rose.

At his 1983 trial, Carlos DeLuna told the jury that on the day of the murder he'd run into Hernandez, who he'd known for the previous five years. The 2 men, who both lived in the southern Texas town of Corpus Christi, stopped off at a bar. Hernandez went over to a gas station, the Shamrock, to buy something, and when he didn't return DeLuna went over to see what was going on.

DeLuna told the jury that he saw Hernandez inside the Shamrock wrestling with a woman behind the counter. DeLuna said he was afraid and started to run. He had his own police record for sexual assault - though he had never been known to possess or use a weapon - and he feared getting into trouble again.

"I just kept running because I was scared, you know." When he heard the sirens of police cars screeching towards the gas station he panicked and hid under a pick-up truck where, 40 minutes after the killing, he was arrested.

At the trial, DeLuna's defence team told the jury that Carlos Hernandez, not DeLuna, was the murderer. But the prosecutors ridiculed that suggestion. They told the jury that police had looked for a "Carlos Hernandez" after his name had been passed to them by DeLuna's lawyers, without success. They had concluded that Hernandez was a fabrication, a "phantom" who simply did not exist. The chief prosecutor said in summing up that Hernandez was a "figment of DeLuna's imagination".

Four years after DeLuna was executed, Liebman decided to look into the DeLuna case as part of a project he was undertaking into the fallibility of the death penalty. He asked a private investigator to spend one day - just one day - looking for signs of the elusive Carlos Hernandez.

By the end of that single day the investigator had uncovered evidence that had eluded scores of Texan police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers and judges over the six years between DeLuna's arrest and execution. Carlos Hernandez did indeed exist.

Liebman's investigator tracked down within a few hours a woman who was related to both the Carloses. She supplied Hernandez's date of birth, which in turn allowed the unlocking of Hernandez's criminal past as the case rapidly unravelled.

With the help of his students, Liebman began to piece together a profile of Hernandez. He was an alcoholic with a history of violence, who was always in the company of his trusted companion: a lock-blade buck knife.

Over the years he was arrested 39 times, 13 of them for carrying a knife, and spent his entire adult life on parole. Yet he was almost never put in prison for his crimes - a disparity that Liebman believes was because he was used as a police informant. "Its hard to understand what happened without that piece of the puzzle," Liebman says.

Several of the crimes that Hernandez committed involved hold-ups of Corpus Christi gas stations. Just a few days before the Shamrock murder he was found cowering outside a nearby 7-Eleven wielding a knife - a detail never disclosed to DeLuna's defence.

He also had a history of violence towards women. He was twice arrested on suspicion of the 1979 murder of a woman called Dahlia Sauceda, who was stabbed and then had an "X" carved into her back. The first arrest was made four years before DeLuna's trial and the 2nd while DeLuna was on death row, yet the connection between this Hernandez and the "phantom" presented to DeLuna's jury was never made.

In October 1989, just two months before DeLuna was executed, Hernandez was setenced to 10 years' imprisonment for attempting to kill with a knife another woman called Dina Ybanez. Even then, no one thought to alert the courts or Texas state as it prepared to put DeLuna to death.

Hernandez himself frequently told people that he was a knife murderer. He made numerous confessions to having killed Wanda Lopez, the crime for which DeLuna was executed, joking with friends and relatives that his "tocayo" had taken the fall. His admissions were so widely broadcast that even Corpus Christi police detectives came to hear about them within weeks of the incident at the Shamrock gas station.

Yet this was the same Carlos Hernandez who prosecutors told the jury did not exist. This was the figment of Carlos DeLuna's imagination.

Many other glaring discrepancies also stand out in the DeLuna case. He was put on death row largely on the eyewitness testimony of one man, Kevan Baker, who had seen the fight inside the Shamrock and watched the attacker flee the scene.

Yet when Baker was interviewed 20 years later, he said that he hadn't been that sure about the identification as he had trouble telling one Hispanic person apart from another.

Then there was the crime-scene investigation. Detectives failed to carry out or bungled basic forensic procedures that might have revealed information about the killer. No blood samples were collected and tested for the culprit's blood type.

Fingerprinting was so badly handled that no useable fingerprints were taken. None of the items found on the floor of the Shamrock - a cigarette stub, chewing gum, a button, comb and beer cans - were forensically examined for saliva or blood.

There was no scraping of the victim's fingernails for traces of the attacker's skin. When Liebman and his students studied digitally enhanced copies of crime scene photographs, they were amazed to find the footprint from a man's shoe imprinted in a pool of Lopez's blood on the floor - yet no effort was made to measure it.

"There it was," says Liebman. "The murderer had left his calling card at the scene, but it was never used."

Even the murder weapon, the knife, was not properly examined, though it was covered in blood and flesh.

Other photographs show Lopez's blood splattered up to three feet high on the walls of the Shamrock counter. Yet when DeLuna's clothes and shoes were tested for traces of blood, not a single microscopic drop was found. The prosecution said it must have been washed away by the rain.

There appeared to have been an unseemly scramble to wrap up the crime scene. Less than two hours after the murder happened, the police chief in charge of the homicide investigation ordered all detectives to quit the Shamrock and allowed its owner to wash it down, sweeping away vital evidence that could have saved a man's life.

The exceptionally lax treatment of evidence continued even beyond the grave. When Liebman asked to see all the stored evidence in the case, so that he could subject it to the DNA testing that was not available to investigators in 1983, he was told that it had all disappeared.

Having lived and breathed this case for so many years, Liebman says the most shocking thing about it was its ordinariness. "This wasn't the trial of OJ Simpson. It was an obscure case, the kind that could involve anybody. Maybe those are the cases where miscarriages of justice happen, the routine everyday cases where nobody thinks enough about the victim, let alone the defendant."

The groundbreaking work that the Columbia law school has done comes at an important juncture for the death penalty in America. Connecticut last month became the 5th state in as many years to repeal the ultimate punishment and support for abolition is gathering steam.

In that context, Liebman hopes his exhaustive work will encourage Americans to think more deeply about what is done in their name. All the evidence the Columbia team has gathered on the DeLuna case has been placed on the internet with open public access.

"We've provided as complete a set of information as we can about a pretty average case, to let the public make its own judgment. I believe they will make the judgment that in this kind of case there's just too much risk."

As for the tocayos Carloses, Carlos Hernandez died of natural causes in a Texas prison in May 1999, having been jailed for assaulting a neighbour with a 9in knife.

Carlos DeLuna commented on his own ending in a television interview a couple of years before his execution. "Maybe one day the truth will come out," he said from behind reinforced glass. "I'm hoping it will. If I end up getting executed for this, I don't think it's right."

(source: readersupportednews.org)

on: May 17, 2012, 02:05:36 AM 14 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Samuel Villegas Lopez - AZ - 5/16/12

I don't want clemency to be done away with (well I do but I have to be realistic.......) so much as it should certainly be more restricted.


That is the crucial statement. The difficulty I suspect is that the Anti’s will say that the 140 people who were exonerated (legally or factually – a different debate) were on DR for an average of 9 years. Therefore no clemency/appeal process could be shorter than 10. Still that’s a change from the 20+ we see.

on: May 17, 2012, 02:01:58 AM 15 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: from yahho, we executed an innocent man.....

I don't know what to believe anymore. There's too much half truths that the antis like to spin around @_@


Although they haven’t admitted their stance on the DP…being students/professors I think it is safe to assume they are anti-DP. So that certainly does need to be considered when reading the report.

A report written by the Pro camp in a similar vain, i.e. years of study, is what is needed. It is reports like this one on De Luna which is swaying public opinion on the issue – perfectly timed before the Cali ballot do we think?
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