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Messages - JoeGuru

on: September 10, 2013, 07:22:42 PM 1 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Henry Watkins "Hank" Skinner - TX - 11/09/2011

First of all, let's start with a link to the "Third Advisory Regarding The Results of DNA Testing" written by Skinner's attorney Rob Owen.

In the first paragraph, he says: "The purpose of this advisory is to notify the Court about those exculpatory mitochondrial DNA test results."

Complete bunk.  There is nothing exculpatory about any of the DNA testing that has been performed to date.

As earth-shattering as Rob Owen would have you believe the mtDNA findings are, they're really not all that remarkable.  Everybody knows what mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) testing is, right?  Basically it establishes maternal lineage with varying degrees of confidence.  So they were trying to match (1) Hank, (2) Twila and her kids and (3) none of the above.

Owen contends: "The test results regarding the other three hairs, however, are significant and exculpatory. The mitochondrial DNA testing showed that those three hairs came from the maternally related line of persons that included the victims." So group 2 (Twila and the kids) so far are in this group along with all of Twila's brothers and sisters. With me on this?

Owen goes on to say that a "microscopic visual examination" of these hairs "excluded the victims" as donors.  What the State's lab actually said was: "visually dissimilar to" other hairs from Busby or her kids.

The technique used by the State was "microscopic hair analysis" which is highly subjective and error prone.  The FBI did a long term study on the technique and, if memory serves me correctly, they found that the error rate was as high as 15% meaning it produces nothing statistically significant.  So the most likely donor was probably Twila Busby herself.

Then there's a rehash of things that have already been gone over before.  There's the hearsay about Donnell threatening his wife and showing no emotion.  Then there's this questionable witness who claimed Donnell was "frantically" scrubbing his truck--a claim that unraveled under cross-examination (but, hey, I guess you have to showboat when you're a high-profile death penalty appellate lawyer).  And of course there's the missing windbreaker conspiracy theory.

But Owen still has another problem: the rest of the DNA evidence from Skinner spewed all over the place.  So Owen has to address it and he does.  I got a chuckle out of this:

For example, the fact that Mr. Skinner’s blood was found on some of the items tested, including a knife likely used in the murder, does not dispel the substantial doubts about his guilt that led to DNA testing in the first place. Mr. Skinner innocently came into daily contact with the handle of the kitchen knife that tested positive for his DNA, and on the night of the crime he was severely bleeding from a cut on his hand.

Permit me to rephrase this for Mr. Owen: Mr. Skinner "innocently" bled, on a daily basis, all over the handle of the kitchen knife.  The fact that he had a big nasty cut on his hand the night of the crime is immaterial.  That kitchen knife and him were best blood buddies long before evil Uncle Bob got hold of it.

Sure sounds like nonsense but will it work?

Well, in order to get a new trial, Rob Owen would have to show there is clear and convincing evidence of Skinner's innocence.  In his arsenal, he has 3 hairs of questionable origin, some unknown DNA, a bunch of hearsay about a conveniently dead guy and a conspiracy theory.

Pretty much everything else, physical and behavioral, points overwhelmingly to Skinner's guilt.

So put yourself in the judge's shoes.  Think it'll work?

on: September 08, 2013, 09:23:47 AM 2 General Death Penalty / Debra Jean Milke / Re: Debra Jean Milke

As I've said: the blame here is on unprofessionalism and incompetence of both the detective and the prosecutor.  If a guilty woman goes free it's because of those clowns.

on: August 18, 2013, 06:14:34 AM 3 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Death Row Innercommunalist Vanguard Engagement Movement

Just ran across another "movement."  A great big "movement" alright.  Heh.  "Comrades."

on: July 27, 2013, 11:25:15 AM 4 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Douglas Feldman - TX 07/31/2013

4) I'm looking for some pretty girls and attractive women to send me some sexy photos.

I remember this crime but I didn't remember when they caught the guy or what they did to him.  I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.  I bet we could have had fun with this one.

Here's a video interview with him for your viewing pleasure.

on: June 13, 2013, 03:38:53 AM 5 Off Topic / Off Topic - Anything / Re: I'm going to marry a death row inmate!

When Europe breaks down, the sharia law accepted and I'm the minority,  I'm planning to leave and immigrate to US. Probably tricky since the 44459876545000 liberals that caused it all got to run before us ordinary people could and taking all legal citizenships.

Plan B:

Foolproof method : going undercover as scumpal. Marry whatever available creep at death row. Getting greencard, dump the so called husband blob day after greencard, never needing to touch that man ever.  :D
Hubby likes the idea. We just importing him.

Hm. Did I really wrote that?     ;)

I love people who are as sick and twisted as me :)

on: April 19, 2013, 07:10:42 PM 7 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Elmer Leon Carroll - FL - 5/28/13

Elmer Leon Carroll execution: Florida man to die by lethal injection for Christine McGowan murder
Carroll later claimed it would be unconstitutional to execute him because he has mental retardation.

The appeals court should reject it saying: "you're not retarded, you're just an idiot."

on: April 10, 2013, 04:39:30 PM 9 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Larry Mann - FL - 04/10/2013

STARKE - Larry Eugene Mann has been executed for the 1980 murder of 10-year-old Elisa Nelson of Palm Harbor.

“Thank God it’s over,” said Katy DeCarolis, Elisa’s cousin.

The U.S. Supreme Court denied Mann’s latest – and final appeal this evening. His lawyers appealed to the high court on Monday, arguing that his death sentence should be overturned because the jury that recommended it wasn’t unanimous. They also argue Mann’s constitutional rights were violated because Gov. Rick Scott used a secret and standardless process before signing Mann’s death warrant.

Minutes before the 59-year-old former oil well driller from Dunedin was scheduled to be executed, roughly a dozen people gathered at an anti-death penalty vigil at the Cathedral of St. Jude the Apostle in St. Petersburg.

People sang hymns, listening to readings and praying – praying that the killer’s life would be spared.

In 1981, Mann was convicted of killing Elisa, who was last seen riding her bike to Palm Harbor Elementary School on Nov. 4, 1980. She had a note in her pocket explaining she was late because of a dentist appointment.

Mann kidnapped her, took her to an orange grove, cut her throat and then beat her head with a pole with a concrete base. He then went home and tried to kill himself, telling the responding police officers he had “done something stupid.”

On Nov. 8, Mann’s wife was getting his glasses out of his pickup and found the note Elisa’s mother had written. It had blood stains on it.

Last week, the state Supreme Court unanimously rejected the argument that Mann shouldn’t be executed because the jury that recommended the death sentence wasn’t unanimous.

His death sentence was overturned once because the trial court made a legal error. He was resentenced to death, and the Supreme Court then affirmed that sentence.

Former Gov. Bob Graham signed Mann’s first death warrant in 1986. Mann has appealed in state and federal court since then.

Elisa’s murder wasn’t Mann’s first brush with the law. He had molested a 7-year-old girl some years before Elisa’s death, prosecutors have said. And, at the time of Elisa’s murder, he was on parole in a 1973 rape in Mississippi, where he told his victim if she didn’t comply with his sexual demands, he’d “get what he wanted” from an 18-month-old baby in the next room, a prosecutor said.

At the prayer service at the Cathedral of St. Jude, St. Petersburg Bishop Robert Lynch asked people at the prayer service to take a moment and pray for the Nelson family. Then he spoke out against the death penalty.

“We take as articles of faith that even one who has fully violated the Fifth Commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ should have their life taken by anyone other than the author of all life, the lord God,” he said.

“After over 200 years of the exercise of the death penalty in this nation that we love, there is still no valid evidence that it reduces crime, that murders diminish and that the people live in a greater security.”

“That same heart and mind which abhors the horror of abortion should logically abhor the state deciding who it is who will live and who will die,” the bishop told the group, which had grown to 21 by the end of the half-hour prayer vigil.

Of the more than 400 inmates on Florida’s death row, 25 were convicted in Pinellas and 25 in Hillsborough County. More than a dozen of the inmates on death row have been there longer than Mann.

I agree it's not a deterrent.  It sure is insurance though.

on: April 10, 2013, 02:08:54 PM 10 General Death Penalty / Executed Offenders (Graveyard) / Re: Steven Smith - OH - 5/1/13

“Steve has a history of accidental, unintended consequences when he gets drunk,” he said. “Autumn’s injuries were caused by the rape. There are no wounds that are strongly corroborative of an intent to kill.”

Look at it this way: no one will have to worry about any more "unintended consequences" in his life!

on: April 04, 2013, 04:49:47 AM 11 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Henry Watkins "Hank" Skinner - TX - 11/09/2011

Joe, is there any more news out than what is posted here about the results of all the DNA testing???

No.  Neither side has released all the details.  The Attorney General seems pretty convinced that there's nothing even remotely exculpatory.  We won't know everything until both sides file what they're going to file.  If you go back and read "John/J.Bennett/John.B/J.B./etc. Skeptical Juror's" needlepoint, however, you see that much of what's been talked about really chips away at the conspiracy theories.

Again, this is a case of stepping back and looking at everything in context.  A missing jacket and random DNA with nothing more than a conspiracy theory doesn't seem like the smoking gun he needs to save him from the final journey gurney.  But with prolific "reporter" supporters like Brandi Grissom and the proven-dishonest and defrocked David Protess (, I'm sure they'll push the conspiracy theories to the bitter end.

on: April 03, 2013, 02:49:40 PM 12 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Henry Watkins "Hank" Skinner - TX - 11/09/2011

One more note regarding "the windbreaker" ( the big question is: what do they expect it to show?

First, there is what appears to be blood on the sleeve or not.  If it is blood, whose is it?  If it is Twila Busby's, that proves the windbreaker was nearby.  If it's somebody else's, it should be someplace other than on the windbreaker, right (like on the carpet too)?  So let's assume that they're not going to find anybody else's blood in the vicinity of where the windbreaker was (which they're not).  OK, let's assume it's Uncle Bob's (Donnell).  OK.  So what?  Where's *ANY* evidence that Uncle Bob came over, took his windbreaker off, beat and stabbed the family then ran off conveniently leaving his jacket at the scene?  I know the conspiracy theory--is that all they have?

Next, the DNA spot on the carpet from an unknown contributor.  OK.  So?  Where's *ANY* evidence that it came from some crazed killer?  Again, I know the conspiracy theory, where's the beef?

It surely doesn't seem like any of this trumps the behavior of a violent ex-con (which Skinner was before the murders) wearing the blood of the victims, whose own blood was splashed around all over the place (including the murder weapons); who fled practically unscathed from this horrendous scene, hid at his ex-girlfriend's house and deliberately tried not to involve the police.  Or am I being too closed minded?

on: April 03, 2013, 02:25:48 PM 13 General Death Penalty / Stays of Execution / Re: Henry Watkins "Hank" Skinner - TX - 11/09/2011

The solace is that no matter how long it takes until he is finally no longer a threat to society, he spends it all by himself in an itty-bitty metal box with others making his life decisions. 

Stepping back and looking at it from a 50,000 foot view, a conspiracy theory over a missing jacket and a random spot of unknown, unconnected DNA found on a carpet wouldn't create reasonable doubt (unless you had a jury made of of wifeaux, Mamma Stalkin, Brandi Grissom, David Protess and their clones); much less the clear and convincing evidence needed to sway a judge.

So test away!  Conspiracy theories do not a legitimate defense make.  Facts, like those that just continue to pile up, do.

on: April 02, 2013, 07:03:10 AM 14 General Death Penalty / U.S. Death Penalty Discussion / Re: Alright listen up. Unofficial guide to the arguments Antis make.


Many of the folks here on this forum know I had a friend who was executed a few years back. I knew him and his fiancee for several years before the police arrested him for a particularly gruesome murder (while high on cocaine he went to a woman's apartment under the guise of borrowing sugar then tied her up, raped her and shot her in the head with a shotgun).  The murder went unsolved for several years until they finally matched a print.  They arrested him early in the morning at his apartment in front of his fiancee.

Nobody knew.  Nobody believed it.  The guy I knew was not (what some called) a "poster boy" for the death penalty.  He'd been a devoted, caring, thoughtful fiance of a friend.  I never saw him drink more than a beer in an evening and he was strikingly extreme in his opposition to drugs.  I would have bet the farm they had the wrong guy until he confessed and was sentenced to death.  We wrote back and forth a number of times and I was fairly depressed when he was executed.

The whole situation caused me to re-examine my views on the death penalty.  I mean, the guy I knew was really, really changed.  He wrote me and asked if I would handle his website--and try to help get his sentence commuted to life.  I thought about it for a long time.  I thought about how I'd react when some day, in about 60 years, he'd call me up to tell me he was out of prison and "let's go have a beer" and "can I stay at your place until I get back on my feet?"  I wrote him back and told him I respected his position and resolve but I was finding out that I really couldn't disagree with the decision of the court!  There was no scenario where I could envision ever wanting to see him free again--or even risk it happening.

So, until you get to the point where you spend a lot of time thinking about: "could he do it again" and "would I ever want to see this guy on the street again" you never really get to the core of the question.  Yes the death penalty is horrible.  No I don't feel good about it and I don't dance about when someone is executed.  But it does one thing: it absolutely, positively, prevents someone who has proven they can commit a heinous act from ever committing a heinous act again--no matter how changed we may think they are.  It absolutely mitigates any and all risks.

Critics point out that there's always "life without parole" as a better alternative.  My response: there's no such thing as life without parole.  Times change.  Politics change.  Life without parole only exists until some politician convinces folks that keeping someone locked up for the rest of their life is cruel and unusual.

I respect people who respect life.  I respect folks who don't believe in an eye-for-an-eye; I don't believe in that either.  My motivation for supporting the death penalty is not "revenge" or "punishment."  It is fear--pure, simple fear.  It's hard enough to locate and arrest many of these guys, in the first place, and my desire for protection from somone's "second chance" is absolute.  So until someone comes up with an alternate, guaranteed form of absolute protection, I'll put the death penalty into the category of "the best there is".  I'll continue to hate it.  I'll continue to wonder why our civilized, evolving society can't fix this.  I'll continue to be open-minded to alternatives.  But I'll accept it until something better comes along.

Think about it.

on: April 01, 2013, 12:29:58 PM 15 General Death Penalty / Debra Jean Milke / Re: Debra Jean Milke

Miriam, the fact that Saldate's integrity was questionable does not mean he was lying in this case.  You don't have any more proof that the guy lied than one of us has proof that he didn't.  It is, by definition, a technicality.  If this is all the proof that existed in evidence, then the fact that the guy was impeachable means (to me) that the burden of "beyond reasonable doubt" was not met.

As I said previously: I lay the blame squarely on Saldate.  He failed to follow good investigative procedures and practices.  Because of his incompetence there is either (1) a chance that a guilty murderer will walk free or (2) an innocent person spent a fair portion of her life behind bars.  Neither of those is good--and only one person knows if she's truly guilty.
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