Started by ScoopD (aka: Pam), June 15, 2008, 09:35:07 PM
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Quote from: Henrik - Sweden on June 21, 2008, 11:31:14 AMDo you know if there's any psychological testing performed on her? If she is guilty - which the evidence seems to support - I would expect her to score very high on tests for psychopathy. For a mother to perform such a heinous act on her own children I see only two explanations:1) She is seriously mentally ill with some kind of psychosis/schizophrenia that has led her to totally lose her grasp on reality2) She is a psychopath of the worst kind with no really feeling towards any other human being. In the mind of such a person another human beings are just things that could be tossed away if you don't need the anymore or if they prevent in some way of doing another things you want to do. A typical example of this kind of murder is Lowell Lee Andrews who murdered his own parents and sister and is described by Truman Capote in "In cold blood" because he was on Kansas DR at the same time as Dick Hickock and Perry Smith. Now #1 isn't supported in this case by anything I've read so far, so therefore it must be #2. If she didn't fit this description it would left me very puzzled.Why can't she just be a selfish arrogant bitch? I mean, yea, I said I have doubts-or at least think she deserves an oscar-BUT if she is guilty, it could just be good old fashioned selfishness.
Do you know if there's any psychological testing performed on her? If she is guilty - which the evidence seems to support - I would expect her to score very high on tests for psychopathy. For a mother to perform such a heinous act on her own children I see only two explanations:1) She is seriously mentally ill with some kind of psychosis/schizophrenia that has led her to totally lose her grasp on reality2) She is a psychopath of the worst kind with no really feeling towards any other human being. In the mind of such a person another human beings are just things that could be tossed away if you don't need the anymore or if they prevent in some way of doing another things you want to do. A typical example of this kind of murder is Lowell Lee Andrews who murdered his own parents and sister and is described by Truman Capote in "In cold blood" because he was on Kansas DR at the same time as Dick Hickock and Perry Smith. Now #1 isn't supported in this case by anything I've read so far, so therefore it must be #2. If she didn't fit this description it would left me very puzzled.
Extreme selfishness in the sense that you really could kill someone without remorse to get what you want, that's the same thing as I call psychopathy. It's a personality disorder that can be diagnosed but not cured (but it vanishes somewhat with age for some unknown reason). It's not however a sickness in the sense that you shouldn't be held responsible for your actions. Psychopaths have a full grasp of reality. Why they lack or almost lack emphaty and conscience we don't know. Many of them had an upbringing with both neglect and abuse, but far from everyone. Not everyone is violent, but they all are manipulative and impossible to trust. I see violent psychopaths as incurable and their disturbance shall not be regarded as "mitigating evidence" - in fact they are the ones who we need to keep away from society the most and be very careful about even when they're in prison. Many other prisoners aren't dangerous as long as you keep them calm, prevent them from taking drugs and perhaps give them some medication. But a psychopath can't be medicated and can always be dangerous. They are hugely overrepresented in the prison population compared to their amount of the total population.
I agree with some of the points you make, iamjumbo. And I definitely agree with Grandmother on most points, as I've shown before on many topics.Apart from the fact that Henrik's first language is NOT English (although I am pretty sure Swedish people have to take English in school for several years and that a big majority is at least pretty fluent in English... even to the point where English is their second language), yes, he may have chosen ONE WORD wrong. And you attack him on ONE word? So, tell me, do you speak any second language as fluently as Henrik does?I'm not going to get into linguistics now, however. Although I could still probably bring up some very good points on that.All I want to know now is why exactly you attacked Henrik? He's an anti. Yes. Grandmother and I are pros. Yet, we still spoke up for Henrik. Why? Well, I can only speak for myself here, but I'm so tired of antis lying about things. And Henrik DEFINITELY is not in that category. Henrik's post are VERY well-thought-out. He considers every point. He can see opposite views. He is an anti, yes, but in high regard of most pros here.In addition, let's get into illness, sickness, psychology, for a moment. I hold a Master's in that. What, apart from your obvious very strong beliefs on the matter of "psychopaths" qualifies YOU for voicing such strong, SEEMINGLY qualified opinions? You just believe that there are people who are worthless. If I had to make a profile on YOU, I'd say that you believe that every African American is worthless in your eyes. You know NOTHING about other countries, obviously, and you know NOTHING about psychology, obviously.But that's just my EDUCATED opinion. Feel free to disagree.Antis lie, in general. No offence to you, Henrik. I'd hate to see pros falling to that level. You seem to do, iamjumbo.
Due to the language barrier, Henrik being Swedish, may have meant Sociopath when he said psychopath. She does fit this profile.Profile of the SociopathSummary of some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths. * Glibness and Superficial Charm * Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. * Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." * Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. * Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. * Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. * Incapacity for Love * Need for Stimulation Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. * Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. * Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. * Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. * Irresponsibility/Unreliability Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. * Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. * Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. * Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily. Other Related Qualities: 1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them 2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them 3. Authoritarian 4. Secretive 5. Paranoid 6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired 7. Conventional appearance 8. Goal of enslavement of their victim(s) 9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life 10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) 11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim 12. Incapable of real human attachment to another 13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt 14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose 15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world (The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.) http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
"i have no problem with henrik's semantics. it really max nix whether darlie is a sociopath or a psychopath. the point is that it doesn't matter. i agree that darlie meets most of the qualifications of a sociopath. it's conceivable that a large percentage of murderers do. however, as with everything else, it is SOLELY by their choice. Too true!
I merely pointed out the fallacy of his thesis that all murderers have some mental illness, and the irrefutable fact that individuals murder for the sole reason that they are inherently worthless as human beings
I was watching a program with 2 doctors on it a few days ago. I don't remember their names, but she was a psychiatrist who had graduated with her doctorate in Psychiatry about 20 to 25 years ago. For her thesis she studied juvenile criminals to see what made or drove them to commit their crimes. She said as she examined these teen children, mentally she began to note that nearly all of them came from abusive backgrounds and had many physical injuries and scars from being abused as a child. She stated she found cigarette burn marks, striped scarring on their back and head injuries in many of the children.She thought about her findings a lot and wanted to know more. For instance were there neurological damage or injuries to these kids as well? So she called a man whom she had graduated with, who chose the field of neurology and was just starting out in his practice too. She did not tell him why, or what she was looking for, she just asked him to examine these kids in the system she had been looking at. He stated that he was annoyed by her insistence that he look at these kids in the criminal justice system and did not want to be around them and did not know why she was asking him to take a look at them. She pestered him into it and he finally said yes. As he began looking into the kids and the crimes they had committed, he began to see a correlation in the types of crimes and the fact that most of them had at some time had head injuries as evidenced by scars on their head. Those with frontal scars around the frontal lobes of their brains were the ones who were the worst off. The frontal lobes are the area of the brain that holds your conscience and tells you when you should or should not do things. The ones who had the more severe injuries in the past to that area of their head were the worst offenders.So in 2 independent findings, when these 2 doctors began to compare notes, they found the same thing, these kids who were abused as children had lost their ability to tell right from wrong with the head injuries and the further abuse they suffered as children.Again, the majority of the findings are that children who are abused lose the ability to make good judgments and become the criminals of tomorrow. Henrik is quite right about this. We in the field of domestic violence and child abuse talk incessantly about stopping the cycle of abuse to prevent that child from growing up to be an abuser too. We know that more people who are abused wind up in prison for violent crimes and murder, than those who have never been abused.So those of you who are poo pooing what Henrik has said here are quite sadly wrong. He is on the right track about the causes of criminal activity in a large segment of the prison population. PREVENTION IS THE KEY to stopping the violence before it happens. However, I still believe in the death penalty for the worst of the worst, unlike Henrik who does not believe it should be used at all. But I do admire his gentleman's stance against the odds here on this forum and hope he keeps speaking out. He has some very good points on many things. Sociology VS Psychopath: I put the definition of Sociopath on here earlier. Compare that to the below definition of Psychopath and you will see it is very close.Psychopathy is a psychological construct that describes chronic immoral and antisocial behavior. The term is often used interchangeably with sociopathy. Psychopathy has been the most studied of any personality disorder. Today the term can legitimately be used in two ways. One is in the legal sense, "psychopathic personality disorder" under the Mental Health Act 1983 of the UK. The other use is as a severe form of the antisocial or dissociative personality disorder as exclusively defined by the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). The term "psychopathy" is often confused with psychotic disorders. It is estimated that approximately one percent of the general population are psychopaths. They are overrepresented in prison systems, politics, law enforcement agencies, law firms, and in the media.The psychopath is defined by a continual seeking of psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes. Using Freudian terminology, the psychopathic personality occurs when the ego can't mediate between the id and the super-ego, thus allowing the id to run off the pleasure principle, and the super-ego has no control over the actions of the ego. In other words, individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their aggressive, sexual and criminal impulses as well as lack a conscience.Psychopathy is frequently co-morbid with other psychological disorders (particularly narcissistic personality disorder). The psychopath differs slightly from the sociopath, and even more so from an individual with antisocial personality disorder. Nevertheless, the three are frequently used interchangeably. While nearly all psychopaths have antisocial personality disorder, only some individuals with antisocial personality disorder are psychopaths. Many psychologists believe that psychopathy falls on a spectrum of disorders ranging from narcissistic personality disorder on the low end, malignant narcissism in the middle, and psychopathy on the high end. An almost all-pervasive misconception is that psychopaths are doomed to a life of violence and crime. It is possible for psychopaths to become successful in many lines of work, while many also become lazy underachievers. Psychopathy is frequently mistaken with other similar personality disorders, such as dissocial personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and schizoid personality disorder (as well as others).DescriptionThis trait in conjunction with an inability to defer gratification in criminal, sexual and aggressive desires, leads to the psychopath to constantly engage in antisocial behaviors. Psychopathy (in its extreme form) does not necessarily lead itself to criminal and violent behavior (although such tendencies are likely). Instead, psychopaths high in social cognition may be able to redirect their aggressive and sexual desires in a more positive manner.Psychopaths (and others on the pathological narcissism scale) low in social cognition are more prone to violence against others, failure in occupational settings, and problems maintaining relationships. All psychopaths differ in their impulse control abilities, and overall desires. Psychopaths high in the pathological narcissism scale are more equipped to succeed, but pathological narcissism does not in any way guarantee success. Those that fall into the category of psychopath are vulnerable to a life of crime, poverty, and extremely poor interpersonal relationships.Hare's items Main article: Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R)The following findings are for research purposes only, and are not used in clinical diagnosis. These items cover the affective, interpersonal, and behavioral features. Each item is rated on a score from zero to two. The sum total determines the extent of a person's psychopathy.Factor1: Aggressive narcissism 1. Glibness / superficial charm 2. Grandiose sense of self-worth 3. Pathological lying 4. Cunning / manipulative 5. Lack of remorse or guilt 6. Shallow 7. Callous / lack of empathy 8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actionsFactor2: Socially deviant lifestyle 1. Need for stimulation / proneness to boredom 2. Parasitic lifestyle 3. Poor behavioral control 4. Lack of realistic, long-term goals 5. Impulsivity 6. Irresponsibility 7. Juvenile delinquency 8. Early behavior problems 9. Revocation of conditional releaseTraits not correlated with either factor 1. Many short-term marital relationships 2. Promiscuous sexual behavior 3. Criminal versatilityIn practice, mental health professional rarely treat psychopathic personality disorders as they are considered untreatable and no interventions have proved to be effective.In England and Wales the diagnosis of dissocial personality disorder is grounds for detention in secure psychiatric hospitals under the Mental Health Act if they have committed serious crimes, but since such individuals are disruptive for other patients and not responsive to treatment this alternative to prison is not often used.Because an individual's scores may have important consequences for his or her future, the potential for harm if the test is used or administered incorrectly is considerable. The test should only be considered valid if administered by a suitably qualified and experienced clinician under controlled conditions. Hare wants the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders to list psychopathy as a unique disorder, saying that psychopathy has no precise equivalent in either the DSM-IV-TR, where it is most strongly correlated with the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, or the ICD-10, which has a partly similar condition called dissocial personality disorder. Both organisations view the terms as synonymous. But only a minority of what Hare and his followers would diagnose as psychopaths who are in institutions are violent offenders. The manipulative skills of some of the others are valued for providing audacious leadership. It is argued that psychopathy is adaptive in a highly competitive environment, because it gets results for both the individual and the corporations or, often small political sects that they represent. However, these individuals will often cause long-term harm, both to their co-workers and the organization as a whole, due their manipulative, deceitful, abusive, and often fraudulent behaviour.Hare describes people he calls psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse". "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."
undoubtedly, there are those who are so physically abused that they suffer physiological trauma that results in psychological abnormalities. of course, what you are describing is legal insanity. an individual who truly does not comprehend that what they are doing is wrong, is not punished for it.however, absent the physiological symptoms, the abuse does not in any way mitigate criminal conduct. with no physical reason for the abherration, it is simply the choice of the individual to be anti social. the same goes for psychopathy. it is the individual's decision to behave as such, and there is no environmental cause.