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General Death Penalty => State by State Death Penalty Information and News => Ohio Death Penalty News => Topic started by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 09:46:43 AM

Title: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 09:46:43 AM
Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Instead of searching for the truth, the state is going to absurd lengths to defend a dubious death sentence.
Last year, the execution of Troy Davis captured most of the attention, and generated most of the debate, on the topic of capital punishment in America. Davis was put to death by lethal injection in Georgia three quarters of the way through a year that saw  a general decline in support for (and implementation of) the death penalty. This year, just a few weeks in, there's an early candidate for such a spotlight: a death row inmate in Ohio whose case raises many of the same questions about fair trials and justice that surrounded the Davis case.

In fact, you could argue that the capital murder case against Tyrone Noling is even weaker than the one against Troy Davis. And you could argue that the capital punishment regime in Ohio is just as arbitrary and capricious as it is most anywhere else. In 1996, Noling was convicted of murdering Cora and Bearnhardt Hartig, an elderly couple, at their home in 1990. At first, though, there was no physical evidence linking Noling to the crime. Not a gun. Not any blood. Not any money or loot. And at first, there were no witnesses against him, either.

Frustrated prosecutors then gave the case to an investigator named Ron Craig and everything changed. Noling was indicted in 1992, but prosecutors soon had to drop the charges against him after he passed a polygraph case -- and after his co-defendant at the time changed his mind and refused to incriminate him. Just so we are straight, in 1992, there was no physical evidence linking Noling to the crime, he had passed a lie detector test, and witnesses were already turning on the investigator.

But a few years later -- under threat from Craig, they now say -- a few folks stepped forward to testify against Noling. They placed him at the crime scene and they testified that he had confessed to killing the Hartigs. Noling's jury deliberated for about day before returning guilty verdicts. Noling was quickly sentenced to death. The state's website duly notes that Noling arrived at its death row on February 21, 1996. He has maintained his innocence ever since.

There are several legitimate reasons why Noling deserves a new trial, especially in a state with a long history of wrongful capital convictions. There are a lot of flawed capital convictions all over the country -- pick a state, any state, where the death penalty is still a priority for prosecutors and you'll find such a case. But a closer look at this case reveals virtually all of the system's main flaws at one time and in one place. The only thing missing from the story is racial bias, which likely would have only made things worse. (As of September 30, 2011, there were 148 inmates on Ohio's death row, 65 of them white males like Noling.)

Unreliable Witness Identification

One big issue in the world of criminal justice these days is the accuracy and reliability of eyewitness testimony. Just two weeks ago, the United States Supreme Court refused to require trial judges to conduct pre-trial evidentiary hearings to determine whether jurors should be allowed to hear testimony from certain eyewitnesses. In Perry v. New Hampshire, only Justice Sonia Sotomayor dissented. She wrote that recent studies convinced her that misidentification by eyewitnesses is "the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions."

Only in cases of prosecutorial misconduct, the Supreme Court said in Perry, should trial courts take a more active role in evaluating the credibility of eyewitness testimony. Looking backward at the Noling case and applying this standard, let's just start (and finish) with the language of a recent ruling by the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in Cincinnati, which declined last June to grant any relief to Noling. The judges, however, included this remarkable passage in their brief opinion:

Quote
Nevertheless, we pause for a moment to highlight our concern about Noling's death sentence in light of questions raised regarding his prosecution. Noling was not indicted until five years after the Hartigs' murders when a new local prosecutor took office. That new prosecutor pursued the cold murder case with suspicious vigor according to Noling's accusers, who have since recanted their stories and now claim that they only identified Noling as the murderer in the first place because they were threatened by the prosecutor.

    In addition to the identifications being potentially coerced, there is absolutely no physical evidence linking Noling to the murders, and there are other viable suspects that the prosecutor chose not to investigate or did not know of at the time. Furthermore, that [prosecution witness and former co-defendant Gary] St. Clair switched courses before trial, deciding not to testify against Noling, gives rise to even more suspicion.

    This worrisome scenario is not enough to create a constitutional claim cognizable under habeas and the Anti-terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act. Other evidence considered by the trial court, such as the witness testimony of Wolcott and Dalesandro, prevents us from questioning the jury's decision that Noling was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, reasonable doubt is a legal standard, and given the serious questions that have been raised regarding Noling's prosecution, we wonder whether the decision to end his life should not be tested by a higher standard.


In other words, the mid-level appellate judges felt so trapped by existing precedent that they were unwilling to even try to ease their worries about Noling's trial by granting him a new one. Last week, Noling's attorneys filed a brief asking the Supreme Court to accept its case and to force Ohio's courts to do more to look into Noling's claims. The appeal is not based upon the recanting eyewitnesses -- although a Perry-type appeal may reach Washington one day -- but it will offer the justices another opportunity to see what's left of Ohio's case against Noling.

DNA Testing

If Noling's capital trial were tainted by forced testimony by key witnesses, all of whom later recanted, then perhaps reasonable people would think it wise to evaluate some of the physical evidence found near the crime scene. You would think Ohio would trip all over itself to account for a conviction and death sentence that, at this moment anyway, seem sustained by no credible evidence. Instead, Ohio is blocking DNA testing of a cigarette butt that Noling's attorneys say may be linked to the real murderer, a man named Daniel Wilson.

Inconveniently, at least for Noling, Wilson now is dead. He was executed in Ohio in 2009 for the 1991 murder of a woman named Carol Lutz. Shortly before Ohio dosed him with its lethal cocktail, Wilson apologized to Lutz's family. Seven years before he brutally murdered Lutz, Wilson had attacked an 81-year-old man in his home. The Hartigs were both 81 years old when they were killed in their home. For Noling's attorneys, Wilson's execution came too early. They were still piecing together the link between him and the Hartigs.

Noling wouldn't be the first convict to blame another convict, and particularly a dead convict, for a crime. But before his trial, way back when, prosecutors "chemically" tested Noling for any trace to the cigarette butt. They found none. At the time, 20 years ago, prosecutors evidently didn't test Wilson -- and we don't know whether and to what extent he was ever a suspect. We know, however, that he wasn't in prison when the Hartigs were killed. And we know he killed Lutz approximately one year later.

Whatever the case, the butt has never been fully tested, under modern DNA protocols, to determine whether it is linked to Wilson or anyone else. Noling's attorneys aren't running away from such a test -- they say that more primitive tests, performed recently, do not rule out Wilson. It's the state that has thrown up legal roadblocks to the testing of this vital evidence. Here, the Ohio Supreme Court has been asked to intervene -- to force Ohio to test this evidence -- so Noling can know whether it links Wilson to the Hartigs' murder.

Prosecutorial-Police Overreaching

One of the other major themes in the national death penalty debate is rampant over-zealousness by police and prosecutors in capital cases. Earlier this month, for example, with the unsurprising exception of Justice Clarence Thomas, the Supreme Court roundly rebuffed Orleans County, Louisiana, prosecutors who had been caught hiding material exculpatory evidence from a capital defendant. In Smith v. Cain, the Justices by an 8-1 count reversed the conviction of a man named Juan Smith. Compare the two cases.

In 2009, 13 years after the trial, as Noling was moving forward with his latest requests for relief, prosecutors suddenly provided the defense with handwritten police notes from 1990 in which a man named Nathan Chesley reportedly identified his "brother" as having murdered the Hartigs. Chesley, it turns out, was Wilson's foster brother. Ohio prosecutors evidently did not share this information with Noling's original defense team. In March 2011, Chesley was still telling folks that it was Wilson, and not Noling, who committed the crime.

It is unclear whether and to what extent local investigators or prosecutors ever followed up on Chesley's lead toward Wilson 20 years ago, or if they have gone back since to question Chesley now that all of the witnesses against Noling have recanted. Would Noling's trial have turned out differently -- would he have been acquitted -- if the defense had been able to follow the lead on Wilson in time? That's essentially one of the questions pending right now before another Ohio appellate court. Yet another chance to get things right with the Noling case.

When the state appeal court judges look at this aspect of the Noling case later this year -- oral argument has not yet been scheduled -- they will have to at least address the Supreme Court's guidance in Smith v. Cain. And if the justices in Columbus are as serious about fixing flaws in capital cases as the justices in Washington seemed to be in Smith v. Cain, they ought to reach out to Noling. Prosecutors who withhold from the defense this kind of evidence -- directly linking someone else to the crime -- are committing a clear constitutional violation .

State and Federal Appellate Law

By now you are probably wondering about Ohio's response to all these claims. In its recent briefs filed in Washington and in Columbus, the state says that Noling's jury got it right back in 1996. It maintains that any other evidence that has cropped up since is either immaterial or insufficient to help Noling, according to post-conviction procedural rules that were established by Congress and implemented by the courts. Ohio wants the law to consider this story to have ended in 1996, just after Craig's witnesses testified and long before they all recanted.

For example, Ohio now points to the 6th Circuit ruling above, which concludes that "the newly discovered facts and all the other evidence do not clearly establish... that a reasonable fact-finder could not have found Noling guilty." Look how far the law is unmoored from logic, how vast the gulf is from legal standard to common sense. We are asked to believe that a reasonable juror, looking at Noling's case now, would find him guilty and sentence him to death based upon no credible witness testimony and no physical evidence.

As to Noling's request to DNA test that cigarette butt, Ohio wrote this remarkable passage in a recent brief. It is a masterpiece of backpedaling, from the very people who thought highly enough of the evidentiary relevance of the butt 20 years ago to test Noling for any link to it. Now, Ohio makes this argument:

Quote
The fact that some person known or unknown to the Hertigs flicked a cigarette butt onto their driveway is irrelevant to the identity of the perpetrator of this crime. There is no information indicating when the cigarette butt was left in the driveway or how long it had been there. If the cigarette butt was from a person known to the Hartigs it could have been left on a visit. Alternatively, if an unknown person left the cigarette butt, there was nothing prevening the public's access to the Hartig's driveway. Therefore, the cigarette butt proves nothing and is not outcome determinative with regards to this case.

Nolting cannot demonstrate that retesting the cigarette butt under current DNA technology would render a result that would be relevant or when analyzed in context of and upon consideration of all available admissible evidence related to this case would render a strong possibility that no reasonable fact-finder would have found him guilty of aggravated murder...


Think Ohio would be making that same argument if the butt had been linked to Noling 20 years ago? Of course not. When that cigarette butt might have incriminated its suspect, Ohio wanted very badly to introduce it to the jury. Now that it may exonerate that very same man, Ohio says the evidence isn't worth spit. What the state really is saying here, and elsewhere, is that even if the butt definitively linked the murderer Wilson to the Hartigs home, the law today does not and should not allow Noling to get a new trial.

This kind of smugness in the face of prosecutorial misconduct -- in the face of all those recanted witnesses, in the face of the chance for an exonerating DNA test -- is precisely why millions of Americans have turned away from the death penalty in the past generation. It's always been a fiction that criminal trials are a "search for the truth." But in this case, it's a fiction that Noling's case was a legitimate "test of the evidence." The Constitution requires more than blind adherence to statutory protocol in the face of material new facts. 

Epilogue

What Ohio is doing to Noling is similar to what many other states do when confronted with shoddy capital convictions. Rather than spend resources to best determine the accuracy of those convictions, rather than getting to the truth, they spend energy defending the virtues of finality and certainty in the criminal justice system. They do so at the expense of counter values like reliability and accuracy. Better not to ever know if it was Wilson who murdered the Hartigs, Ohio now argues, since we've already blamed someone else anyway.

There are so many essential questions -- and Ohio spends no time answering them. For example, has Portage County ever conducted an internal investigation to determine whether Craig subjected witnesses in this case, and perhaps other cases, to "coercive interrogation tactics" in order to elicit incriminating testimony from them? And should Ohio's courts -- and current Portage County prosecutors -- simply ignore the fact that former Governor Ted Strickland and former state attorney general Richard Cordray both believe further DNA testing should be done?

More questions. Congress harshly tipped the balance against defendants like Noling when it passed the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act in 1996. "Effective," it turns out, meant rejecting meaningful appeals like Noling's on procedural grounds. For example, without the AEDPA and the way it has been interpreted by the Supreme Court, the 6th Circuit last June might have given Noling the new trial he's been asking for. So is the Clinton-era AEDPA constitutional when applied in cases like this? How can that be?

Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, it doesn't matter: when it comes to states defending soiled capital convictions, the arguments are always the same. Serious prosecutorial errors are excused. Hypothetical jurors, the ones from whom material exculpatory evidence was hidden at trial, are assumed to vote guilty. Witnesses who recant are said to be lying now, not at trial. The impact of poor defense work is minimized. Ohio thinks it is defending the honor of the 1996 conviction. Instead, it's defending what's been revealed to be a sham. Why? And at what cost?

The small county in northeast Ohio where the Hartigs were murdered, and where Noling was convicted, is called Portage County, named so because of the portage that was necessary for settlers between the Cuyahoga and Tuscarawas rivers. From my view, the evidence today suggests that Noling has been subject to a portage of his own, by overzealous prosecutors, rank politicians, and cowardly judges, who've stubbornly carried the man's conviction and death sentence over land when the logic and the evidence and the facts wouldn't flow.

Source: The Atlantic (31/01/2012)   http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/is-ohio-keeping-another-innocent-man-on-death-row/252126/


This post has been modified to change the title from "Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt" to  the actual title of the article.  Also note that I added a link to the original article and separated the paragraphs for easier reading.  ..............................Pam   

Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Swif on February 01, 2012, 11:06:18 AM
And your point is caller  ???
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 11:10:34 AM
None - ive noticed that this website likes to keep abreast of all DP news and invites discussion...so im merely facilitating DP related news when i find it
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: loulou. on February 01, 2012, 11:14:59 AM
yes we like to know they are executed ;)
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Henrik - Sweden on February 01, 2012, 11:49:50 AM
You posted in a topic that I think is meant to be for general discussions about the DP, even though we haven't been very good ourselves at following this . Posts regarding a specific case can be made under Cases to watch i.e

If you post here anyway regarding a specific inmate, please write name, state in the header.

A very long post like the one you made should at least have a cliff note. A hyperlink to the text you've copied is also preferable.
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 11:51:25 AM

You posted in a topic that I think is meant to be for general discussions about the DP, even though we haven't been very good ourselves at following this . Posts regarding a specific case can be made under Cases to watch i.e

If you post here anyway regarding a specific inmate, please write name, state in the header.

A very long post like the one you made should at least have a cliff note. A hyperlink to the text you've copied is also preferable.


Duly noted Henrik - thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: loulou. on February 01, 2012, 11:55:23 AM
very long winded i have to agree
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Henrik - Sweden on February 01, 2012, 12:06:06 PM
One of the things I have gained a better understanding of by hanging on this forum as an anti is that most DP cases that are described as "weak" "circumstantial" or something similar in newspaper articles or pro-inmate webpages really aren't relying on such weak evidence if you look at them more closely. I'm not familiar with this case, but I would be very surprised if the eye witnesses were the only piece of evidence that was brought up at the trial. In some cases - like that of Hank Skinner - it's an outright lie that some of his supporters have had some success when it comes to having media write and broadcast about it.

The abolishion movement is not gained if people are buying inmate propaganda without any control of background facts.

Something that also should be remembered that once you are convicted it is no longer about proving "reasonable doubt" to get your conviction tossed. You need to prove either factual innocence or that there was some serious errors in the trial(s). It's the same thing in all countries that I have some knowledge of and the legal system wouldn't work if you could get a new trial with some doubts as the only basis.
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: ScoopD (aka: Pam) on February 01, 2012, 12:31:08 PM

None - ive noticed that this website likes to keep abreast of all DP news and invites discussion...so im merely facilitating DP related news when i find it


Do me a favor..........  from now on don't do me any favors.
Title: Re: Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 12:38:51 PM

One of the things I have gained a better understanding of by hanging on this forum as an anti is that most DP cases that are described as "weak" "circumstantial" or something similar in newspaper articles or pro-inmate webpages really aren't relying on such weak evidence if you look at them more closely. I'm not familiar with this case, but I would be very surprised if the eye witnesses were the only piece of evidence that was brought up at the trial. In some cases - like that of Hank Skinner - it's an outright lie that some of his supporters have had some success when it comes to having media write and broadcast about it.

The abolishion movement is not gained if people are buying inmate propaganda without any control of background facts.

Something that also should be remembered that once you are convicted it is no longer about proving "reasonable doubt" to get your conviction tossed. You need to prove either factual innocence or that there was some serious errors in the trial(s). It's the same thing in all countries that I have some knowledge of and the legal system wouldn't work if you could get a new trial with some doubts as the only basis.

Very true Henrik...and well articulated once more. I opted to post this particular piece (granted in the wrong location...as I don't know what exactly goes where yet) because it came from a newspaper source (The Atlantic). The writer, a Mr Andrew Cohen, who is an independent analyst who has won the Murrow Award. I would agree that any material taken from a blatant anti-DP source has to be sifted through and taken with the biggest heap of salt. At best I find they provide useful gateways for me to explore potentially interesting cases/scenarios etc..

I do think its important to remember that guilt is located under a lower threshold. This is why once on death row your chances of leaving are very slim. This is why questions of procedural impropriety and negligence are of the greatest importance. If your going to lower the bar to help prove culpability then you best be sure to allow the defendant an fair trial. 
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ScoopD (aka: Pam) on February 01, 2012, 12:42:42 PM
Please note that I made some modifications to the original post and also moved it to the appropriate category.   
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Elric of Melnibone on February 01, 2012, 03:57:21 PM
Yorki, the prosecutors NEVER go for the death penalty unless there is so much evidence that is against the criminal and the crime is so horrible that they have to.  I will admit there are some cases where someone did drop the ball but we have a transparent legal system.  Think about that when you read about people gettng death with a relgious idiot being the judge. 
That said, I wish we did not ever have to use the death penalty.  It is a horrific punishment meant for the most brutal of acts, that of killing a person, created in the image and likeness of God.  But as long as the crooks use and believe in the death penalty, so to shall I because there has to be a line that says that if you cross this, YOU WILL DIE.  For an example of what happens when you do not have the death penalty you need to look not further than Mexico.  Look at their crime problems and how some of those cartels kill their victims.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 04:11:23 PM
Eric,

Yes certainly Capital punishment is reserved for a select number of crimes...I currently believe that any form of it in the legal system can still breed the possibility of error (but that is my own personal opinion). You too have noted that:


I will admit there are some cases where someone did drop the ball


Yes there have been a number of failed cases. My point would be: Knowing that mistakes have been made, do you think its right to risk the death of an innocent man?

I too wish that incarceration levels would reduce as a result of reduced crime levels. I think in order to tackle that, very large, issue you need to ask what is it that turns a human being into a criminal? We are all born one and the same - you never heard the midwife say 'Congrats you've just given birth to a beautiful armed robber'. So therefore is it: the people who you forge relationships with, the environment you keep yourself in, the lack of teaching and education, money, religion or medical reasons? Once you locate the cause then you can stamp out its effect.

I also don't think comparing America to Mexico is quite right in this instance. Both have completely different political, judicial and societal setups. They also have close links to South American countries who have even more differing political setups.

Interesting nonetheless
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Jim S on February 01, 2012, 04:25:14 PM

Yes there have been a number of failed cases. My point would be: Knowing that mistakes have been made, do you think its right to risk the death of an innocent man?


As I have said in the deleted thread, I challenge you to name one person that has been executed since 1976 in the USA and was later Proved innocent!

Jim S.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Yorki3 on February 01, 2012, 04:40:52 PM
Timothy Cole was exonerated by Texas in 2009 after being sentenced to a 25 year term. He died whilst incarcerated. Now yes its not a DP case, but it's a case none the less than was still required the same prosecution teams to test their evidence against the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' maxim. That is no different to a DP case trial. The only difference with a DP trial comes at the sentencing phase - which ignores the evidence and looks purely at the extenuating and mitigation circumstances surrounding the alleged criminals character.

But also, how many states are readily going to admit there ruling and legal system has sent an innocent man to his death? Especially the states who love executing people, i.,e. Texas. Also the lack of money and funding that prisoners on death row have is well documented - if they struggle to find adequate defence during there trial and appeals then how will they afford the resources to take on the state after death?

Independents have taken out their own reports and returned decisions of innocence...or at the very least serious questions which would fail the 'beyond reasonable doubt test'. If there is a doubt then the DP shouldn't be pursued - In my opinion (I stress opinion here) I do not believe it is right to take any chances with a humans life. Independent cases include Larry Griffin: where the University of Michigan Law School ran a report and returned 100% innocence verdict.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: loulou. on February 01, 2012, 06:15:31 PM
you seem to think you know alot about american justice system for an english person something odd with you  :o
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Angelstorms OL'Man on February 01, 2012, 06:18:14 PM
Yorki  I want  to see where this is proven. I want  to see where the state admits it Convicted the wrong person.

Also yorki do you know how to tell when a criminal  is lieing out his  out there azz???  Because I do.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JeffB on February 01, 2012, 07:03:48 PM

Timothy Cole was exonerated by Texas in 2009 after being sentenced to a 25 year term. He died whilst incarcerated. Now yes its not a DP case, but it's a case none the less than was still required the same prosecution teams to test their evidence against the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' maxim. That is no different to a DP case trial. The only difference with a DP trial comes at the sentencing phase - which ignores the evidence and looks purely at the extenuating and mitigation circumstances surrounding the alleged criminals character.

But also, how many states are readily going to admit there ruling and legal system has sent an innocent man to his death? Especially the states who love executing people, i.,e. Texas. Also the lack of money and funding that prisoners on death row have is well documented - if they struggle to find adequate defence during there trial and appeals then how will they afford the resources to take on the state after death?

Independents have taken out their own reports and returned decisions of innocence...or at the very least serious questions which would fail the 'beyond reasonable doubt test'. If there is a doubt then the DP shouldn't be pursued - In my opinion (I stress opinion here) I do not believe it is right to take any chances with a humans life. Independent cases include Larry Griffin: where the University of Michigan Law School ran a report and returned 100% innocence verdict.


What are you yapping about now Yorky?  Don't you have a witness statement to make up - err, I mean - draft?  ::)

Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ICE75 on February 01, 2012, 07:06:27 PM
Yorki,

First of all, Jim asked you to show ONE case where an innocent person was executed.  You didn't, but opted instead to throw out a red herring to deflect that you had no proof and to keep your claim alive and breathing, ie, the Cole life in prison case.  Nice try, but..FAIL!

Secondly, Troy Davis was guilty as hell.  There was a reason why the defense manuevered in the fashion that they did and did not want a complete review of all the evidence and that was because there was evidence produced at the original trial that placed Davis less than two miles from the murder scene a couple of hours before the execution of McPhail where he produced and used a small caliber handgun that guess what?  It was the same caliber of the weapon that killed McPhail...not to mention the numerous witnesses who 'recanted' years later.  Guess what?  They all lived in the same neighborhood.

Please come up with some better arguments if you're expecting to sway any of the folks here because they were innocent until PROVEN guilty and sorry, but not ALL of them are "victims" just because you and the rest of the anti's don't like the Death Penalty.

Oh yeah...and support for the DP IS NOT falling in the US, it is growing.  Please provide me with proof that it is or cease and desist with pushing that personal opinion as factual information.

Thank you...
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JeffB on February 01, 2012, 07:14:29 PM
Ice - Anti's don't get their "anti card" until they can demonstrate the ability to deflect or divert from questions.  That's what makes Yorky so special...  It's all part of her charm...   ;)
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ScoopD (aka: Pam) on February 01, 2012, 08:04:24 PM
ya know, I am feeling kind of left out by Yorki, for some reason she never responds to my posts..................     ???    --sniffin under my arms, do I smell?   
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Angelstorms OL'Man on February 01, 2012, 08:50:07 PM
Only thing I smell is perfume. And Yorki evading direct lines of questions.  Sounds more and more like a defense lawyer every time I read.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Elric of Melnibone on February 01, 2012, 08:57:21 PM
Chanell #5 Pammee???
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: time2prtee on February 01, 2012, 09:18:42 PM
Yorkie, you accused me of cherry picking, and twisting your words..well these last few posts of yours are showing prime examples of that. Solicitor it is... I do not like debating with people who do not answer direct questions, with on-point answers backed up by facts. I also note there is yet no comment on the news articles on Rodrigo, where he ADMITS HIS GUILT on 2 murders. This was that innocent guy you were talking about in your intro....so welcome to my ignore button!

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtu3ER70M4jjzZMIY8Ttdzz6l4pzokzKakuyWH8AcKLb3lwq-isw)

Not worth my time or energy.

Question was, who has been exonerated, that has been EXECUTED, (meaning SENTENCED TO DEATH AND THE SENTENCE WAS CARRIED OUT.) since 1977, and you go on about a guy who was sentenced to 25 years, who died in prison ....Not sorta, Not kinda, Not like, Not almost....EXECUTED
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: time2prtee on February 01, 2012, 09:29:31 PM
LOL, this was one of my first posts here...Deja vu?


And to the Antis who do not want to debate intelligently, want to say all of these scum are innocent, or fail to answer direct questions with facts that can be backed up...if you don't like it...leave....here is the website for you  www.prisontalk.org, or google anti death penalty sites, there are plenty who will listen there. You might even be able to get your very own scumbag as a penpal; you can spend some money on it and feel better about yourself!

Maybe I should make that my siggy, since I always seem to be repeating myself....  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JeffB on February 01, 2012, 09:30:17 PM
In another thread Frenchy posted:

I am pretty sure that Yorki the Troll has acted for 'Fair Trials International'. This irritating organisation has a number of Nimbys who try to impose the 'British way' on other nations and consider any country that pursues the DP as savages.

I insist that Yorky address this.

On the other hand, I really don't want to encourage her...  ;)   What a conundrum.....   ???
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JoeGuru on February 01, 2012, 11:21:58 PM


Yes there have been a number of failed cases. My point would be: Knowing that mistakes have been made, do you think its right to risk the death of an innocent man?


As I have said in the deleted thread, I challenge you to name one person that has been executed since 1976 in the USA and was later Proved innocent!

Quote from: Yorki3
Timothy Cole was exonerated by Texas in 2009 after being sentenced to a 25 year term. He died whilst incarcerated. Now yes its not a DP case...


Jim S.


Objection.  Non-responsive.

Quote from: Yorki3
But also, how many states are readily going to admit there ruling and legal system has sent an innocent man to his death?


Objection. Conspiratorial, paranoid, speculative, and the witness is obviously not an expert.

Quote from: Yorki3
Independents have taken out their own reports and returned decisions of innocence...


Objection.  Hearsay.

Quote from: Yorki3
Independent cases include Larry Griffin: where the University of Michigan Law School ran a report and returned 100% innocence verdict


Objection.  Not a court of competent jurisdiction.

Look Yorki: you came in here defending (among others) Hank Skinner.  The "prestigious" Medilldo Innocence Project "investigated" the circumstances surrounding Skinner's conviction and also came to the startling conclusion that Skinner was innocent and the real killer was, in fact, Uncle Bob who raped her, then dressed her back up again before beating her to death with an axe handle.  Hey, even ABC News got in on the act: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/hank-skinner-minute-stay-execution-supreme-court-texas/story?id=10200157#.TynE8CPW9Go.

This darling of wrongful-conviction conspirators has a machine to push out all sorts of garbage and nonsense--when, in reality, there are some inconvenient "facts" they just can't explain away (but if you'd like to give it a go, here is a starting place: http://www.hankskinner.com/facts.html).

You also mentioned the "weak" case against Troy Davis.  Yes, lots of hype, lots of drum beating, innuendo, "recantations," "smoke-and-mirrors" (as a judge put it) and the list goes on.  But when the day came for Troy's lawyers to present their case, they declined to put any of these "recanting" witnesses on the stand for cross-examination.

Why?

I'll make it simple: [1] murder is not the only thing these killers will lie about and [2] if they told the truth, it would get them executed quicker.

So I understand why you can't answer Jim's question directly, or truthfully.  The truth wouldn't fit your agenda.

Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Angelstorms OL'Man on February 01, 2012, 11:46:58 PM
Yorki poo Hello are still here or did you go? I have asked More times then I care to count for proof on every thing you say. Well I give up. So I am going to do some digging on you.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Yorki3 on February 02, 2012, 09:48:41 AM

you seem to think you know alot about american justice system for an english person something odd with you  :o


Its called an education and wanting to better oneself. I also find it helps to at least have a basic understanding of the topic your debating. But that's just me....


Yorki  I want  to see where this is proven. I want  to see where the state admits it Convicted the wrong person.

Also yorki do you know how to tell when a criminal  is lieing out his  out there azz???  Because I do.


I cant help but feel the legal profession was your vocation. Its amazing what you find training at the X-Men Training Facility these days. Personally I think that Gambit had the coolest power, but 'knowing when every criminal is lying' is pretty awesome too!


Yorki,

First of all, Jim asked you to show ONE case where an innocent person was executed.  You didn't, but opted instead to throw out a red herring to deflect that you had no proof and to keep your claim alive and breathing, ie, the Cole life in prison case.  Nice try, but..FAIL!

Secondly, Troy Davis was guilty as hell. 

Please come up with some better arguments if you're expecting to sway any of the folks here because they were innocent until PROVEN guilty and sorry, but not ALL of them are "victims" just because you and the rest of the anti's don't like the Death Penalty.

Oh yeah...and support for the DP IS NOT falling in the US, it is growing.  Please provide me with proof that it is or cease and desist with pushing that personal opinion as factual information.

Thank you...


Firstly, I stressed in my post - try using this ability called 'reading' that Cole WASN'T a DP case but died whilst wrongfully convicted. The point I was raising (I didn't realise just how hard it would be to grasp) was that a DP is not adjudged against any higher barrier for culpability and it is still a trial by juror. It is still 'beyond all reasonable doubt' and the charges are still dealt with by the same legal personnel. I was therefore pointing out this could show the POTENTIAL for mistake in any criminal trial, which includes DP cases. [Please note - I said POTENTIAL. I have not said ALL accused are innocent. Simply that there is the POTENTIAL for mistake. I don't actually expect any of you to recall this part when you respond].

Secondly, where have I have ever mentioned Troy Davis??? Please Copy and Paste MY post relating to Mr Davies. I think you will find the writer of the article, which I copied and pasted, raised that topic (I find the website hyperlink gives a lot of hints that I may not have written the article - for future reference).

Thirdly, I have never said "ALL accused are victims" - once again provide post proof that I have. I will say it again (please note im expecting to have to repeat this at some point in the future) A Large Majority of Accused Are Guilty.

Fourthly, once again your simply just making my posts up for me now. Where have I said that support for the DP is fading. Although now its brought up it has decreased since the 80's when people bloody loved it - couldn't get enough. On the last opinion polls (which dated to 2010) it was 61% in favour with 35% against and 4% abstaining. Its strange how execution levels have decreased year upon year and more states are abolishing it. Why are the 61 losing to the 35?


It's all part of her charm...   ;)


Coming from the gentlemen who's forum moto is 'Does this rag smell of Chloroform' - i rest my case your honour.


I also note there is yet no comment on the news articles on Rodrigo, where he ADMITS HIS GUILT on 2 murders.


Once again putting words into my mouth. Your all very good at that one. Why don't you just set up a blank account, called 'thug loving anti' and then just make posts up for it. Please post evidence where I have said Hernandez was innocent? But I will save you the trouble...Hernandez was guilty - Yorki3 2012. I don't think many would question culpability being the issue in that execution.


In another thread Frenchy posted:

I am pretty sure that Yorki the Troll has acted for 'Fair Trials International'. This irritating organisation has a number of Nimbys who try to impose the 'British way' on other nations and consider any country that pursues the DP as savages.

I insist that Yorky address this.


Whats to address...you hypothesised something you've made up (again). Its like me saying 'I bet you love moonshine and firing a gun wildly into the air'. Baseless nonsense once more. But to end your conundrum, the answer is NO I haven't had any dealings with them. Although why you protest against people gaining a fair trial is beyond me. Perhaps you should team up with khirskorn and he can tell you who's lying and then dispose of right then and there. The land of the free! Ah

And Finally,

JoeGuru - You have written a well articulated piece there and you haven't posted as much as the rest. Im more than happy to converse in this mature fashion - makes a change. But please note from the outset that I have never "defended" Hank Skinner at all...and if people claim I do then please provide evidence of the such. My only reference to Hank was the grey area cast by his request for DNA testing. I immediately stressed (as you will find I have done plenty of times in this message - but its usually ignored) that I knew very little of the case and therefore could not profess to give fair comment. Certainly many will play the system to prolong the longevity of their existence...but as someone who knows only the basics facts (there I have stressed that again) surely just run the DNA test...prove guilt and then execute. It would also prove as a great tool in the PRO-DP arsenal because it would show the world that criminal do and will lie - cant be a bad thing from you're point of view?


And my last part - please can you ALL take note that when dealing in a "Me against the World" situation that I find It hard to reply to everyone. The length of this message is testament to that fact. I do have a day job and a life outside of the computer.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ICE75 on February 02, 2012, 12:08:48 PM
msg107561#msg107561 date=1328120294]

Yorki,

First of all, Jim asked you to show ONE case where an innocent person was executed.  You didn't, but opted instead to throw out a red herring to deflect that you had no proof and to keep your claim alive and breathing, ie, the Cole life in prison case.  Nice try, but..FAIL!

Secondly, Troy Davis was guilty as hell. 

Please come up with some better arguments if you're expecting to sway any of the folks here because they were innocent until PROVEN guilty and sorry, but not ALL of them are "victims" just because you and the rest of the anti's don't like the Death Penalty.

Oh yeah...and support for the DP IS NOT falling in the US, it is growing.  Please provide me with proof that it is or cease and desist with pushing that personal opinion as factual information.

Thank you...


Quote
Firstly, I stressed in my post - try using this ability called 'reading' that Cole WASN'T a DP case but died whilst wrongfully convicted. The point I was raising (I didn't realise just how hard it would be to grasp) was that a DP is not adjudged against any higher barrier for culpability and it is still a trial by juror. It is still 'beyond all reasonable doubt' and the charges are still dealt with by the same legal personnel. I was therefore pointing out this could show the POTENTIAL for mistake in any criminal trial, which includes DP cases. [Please note - I said POTENTIAL. I have not said ALL accused are innocent. Simply that there is the POTENTIAL for mistake. I don't actually expect any of you to recall this part when you respond].


No, I saw your word potential, but your entire argument is a red herring.  Since 'ye be learned', go andm look that up because it is a tactic you are using .                           

Quote
Secondly, where have I have ever mentioned Troy Davis??? Please Copy and Paste MY post relating to Mr Davies. I think you will find the writer of the article, which I copied and pasted, raised that topic (I find the website hyperlink gives a lot of hints that I may not have written the article - for future reference).


You make mention of Mr. Davis in the first paragraph by citing the article.  Sorry, but you cannot get a pass by throwing out a subject via someone else's argument and then claiming that you aren't using it.  You most certainly are.  Confounding isn't it...this whole writing thing.  If you desire to give out a different opinion, you would need to tell the reader something to the affect of this is an interesting read, not that I agree with all of it but check it out!  You threw it out there to start controversy.  Don't cleim non-relation when it comes.

Quote
Thirdly, I have never said "ALL accused are victims" - once again provide post proof that I have. I will say it again (please note im expecting to have to repeat this at some point in the future) A Large Majority of Accused Are Guilty.


You are correct here. You never said that, you just have that mindset that most anti's do where you defend every scumbag on DR whether they were caught with a bloody knife in hand or not.  I am quite shocked to see that you admit that a large majority are guilty, but you'd better watch language like that because the anti's routinely scour this website and they will pull your 'bleeding heart leftist anti-death penalty ' card if they see that type of rhetoric from their clan.  lol

Quote
Fourthly, once again your simply just making my posts up for me now. Where have I said that support for the DP is fading. Although now its brought up it has decreased since the 80's when people bloody loved it - couldn't get enough. On the last opinion polls (which dated to 2010) it was 61% in favour with 35% against and 4% abstaining. Its strange how execution levels have decreased year upon year and more states are abolishing it. Why are the 61 losing to the 35?


Once again, guilty by association.  You throw an article out there and then use it as your talking point.  Don't expect to do that here and not be called on it.  And the 61% aren't really loosing to the 35%.  Haven't you seen where the drug companies have stopped 'allowing' their drugs for executions in a veiled attempt to induce their own opinions on the subject into the argument?  Guess what, the states have all responded by using pheno.  Sounds like the majority is alive and well there.  Additionally, don't let the tyranny of the minority get you all riled up.  That, unfortunately is how America works most of the time.  Look at poll after poll regarding the ballooning deficit. The majority does not want that to continue, but guess who controls that?  Politicians.  Guess who controls whether the DP statys in effect in the individual states?  The politicians.

Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: loulou. on February 02, 2012, 01:51:47 PM
that wasnt meant as a compliment yorki, you read something and just believe it and quote it.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Henrik - Sweden on February 02, 2012, 04:05:23 PM
Yorki: Even as an anti myself I don't understand the argument regarding DNA-testing in the case of Hank Skinner. As far as I know a basic principle in most legal systems is that you cannot use evidence later on in the appealing process that were known and available at the trial but for some reason wasn't used by the defence. What Skinner tries to do is creating a false association with those cases were DNA-tests weren't available at the time of the trial for some reason and where we all know that a couple of inmates have been exonerated after DNA-tests. But DNA-testing was available at Skinner's trial and the evidence he now wants to DNA-test were also available. It was he himself who chosed to don't use them (Geeez I wonder why..  ::) ) As much as I am against the DP as a legal way of killing people I cannot see on what grounds he shall be allowed to have this testing performed. It's just a delay tactics, even if most of Skinner's supporters fail to understand that.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ALgirl on February 02, 2012, 08:03:26 PM
Yorki, I mostly keep to myself and don't often feel that i have much to add, but good Lord, you make me tired. 


*heading back to my corner now*
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Angelstorms OL'Man on February 02, 2012, 08:18:47 PM
Yorki.

Objection.

accused fails to answer. 

Yorki You can't ever answer a question.

To be honest. When you  talk, it sounds like the teacher on Charlie Brown.  Bla BBla Blaa. 

Now Refer to the posted pic. For what I think of you, and your rederick.  You shell now be referred to by me as, MommsTalkin_out_her_azz.


Thank you for reenforcing why Prisons should be ran like a dog pound.
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JeffB on February 02, 2012, 10:00:57 PM



It's all part of her charm...   ;)


Coming from the gentlemen who's forum moto is 'Does this rag smell of Chloroform' - i rest my case your honour.




You have to have MADE a case in order to REST it.    ::)


Yorky, I'm afraid you're a poor solicitor...    :-[ 


Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: ScoopD (aka: Pam) on February 02, 2012, 10:08:19 PM
OMG Jeff....     This is off topic but Yorki inspired me to look at your signature line.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I really need to be here more often.  I miss all the fun!
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: time2prtee on February 02, 2012, 10:12:17 PM
Pretending to be Frenchy...


I think Yorki and Sylar should get married...maybe a nice Muslim ceremony perhaps...

Ok Back to being Lee again  ;)
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Granny B on February 02, 2012, 10:55:47 PM

OMG Jeff....     This is off topic but Yorki inspired me to look at your signature line.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I really need to be here more often.  I miss all the fun!


Yep, but I would bet the yapping yorki never figured out it was from the Casey Anthony case.  Of course, since she/he/it seems to be so up to date on American cases you would have thought she would have known that! ;)
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: time2prtee on February 02, 2012, 11:05:47 PM
Yorki: Even as an anti myself I don't understand the argument regarding DNA-testing in the case of Hank Skinner.

Henrik, that is because you are not delusional. We disagree about the ultimate demise of these folks, but you certainly have a reasoned approach to crime and cases....I think we need to define 2 separate species of Anti's, they are certainly different.

(I'm being nice, even if you wouldn't date a chick from an international DP site... ;))
;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: J - Dog on February 03, 2012, 03:06:02 AM
 Normal Anti's and Pro's on this site share good insight and offer up relaxing interaction.  There is no hostility it would seem.  However, for some remarkable reason, Yorki, you exhibit what I would consider a non-position and you debate with yourself. 
You said you were for the DP when you were a youngster, but have looked to find the truth about why people seek death as an option.  You came to this site because it is one of the few real places on-line that you can actually find real people who talk about DP daily.  Many here have had loved ones stolen from them, have had their lives shattered FOREVER.  That pain does not go away, and people have the right to feel the way they do.  It is their RIGHT, and a personal choice. 

Are you seeking assistance to help with your moral compass?  You seem to seek a reason as to why people who are for the Death Penalty feel the way we do, yet you don't seem to like the responses you receive.  I think it is quite clear. Yorkie, before you yap yap away.  Start by reading about the murderers and how sick and sadistic they are.  They are EVIL  bastards.  They are not human, they are completely lost to society.   They destroy people's lives emotionally.  They destroy what humanity is about and for that we make them disappear, the guilty and diseased.

Do you have a family or kids?  Go read about the violence and torture they inflict upon the innocent and then ask yourself; what if that was my family?  What if I had to wake up and live that life, you cannot know that kind of pain.  Start thinking about the victims first, not the murderer.  If you want to forgive them and coddle them or help give legal advice, go for it.  There are sites and people just like you that could debate with a rock.
   
You talk about the "potential" for mistakes to happen in court/trial.  Really? Hold on to your hat, there is a wind blowing your way.   Yorkie there is potential in everything, even you.  It is how Justice moves forward that makes for right, makes for finality, makes for the better.   We are giving them the easy way out.  How would you feel if someone was trying to kill you, rape you, burn you alive, torment you, inflict pain, smash your damn head in, until you are dead.   What would you say from your grave, nothing because you be dead.   Sorry, but f^ck.   Murderers are just garbage.

Why should they live, Yorkie, I mean really, just ask yourself are they redeemable?  I think you already know the answer.  You just will not admit that some people will not view the world as you do, and for that I am glad.  You are an advocate of change clearly, but I think you are in the wrong place, maybe you are hoping someone will anonymously read your posts and silently agree with you.  Great if they do, great if they don't.  I could care less if you even read my post, honestly.   

I just hope you do find safe passage in gentler waters, because the storm has passed and your ship sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic.  God speed to you.

I will part with a photo, like it or don't, I thought you might get a laugh.
"No fear little my little murderous friend, I am on your side, let's get close and personal" - Wonder Yorkie!

(http://ebandit.in/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/funny_wonder-woman.jpg)

Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: JTiscool on February 04, 2012, 03:38:32 AM
I have never rolled my eyes harder in my entire life  ::)
Title: Re: Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?
Post by: Russki on February 04, 2012, 07:09:55 AM
quoting Yorki 

"Secondly, where have I have ever mentioned Troy Davis??? Please Copy and Paste MY post relating to Mr Davies."

Yorki, I think that you must be suffering from early signs of dementia. Seek medical help immediately.

From your first post on this subject:-

"Is Ohio Keeping Another Innocent Man on Death Row?

Instead of searching for the truth, the state is going to absurd lengths to defend a dubious death sentence.
Last year, the execution of Troy Davis captured most of the attention, and generated most of the debate, on the topic of capital punishment in America. Davis was put to death by lethal injection in Georgia three quarters of the way through a year that saw  a general decline in support for (and implementation of) the death penalty. This year, just a few weeks in, there's an early candidate for such a spotlight: a death row inmate in Ohio whose case raises many of the same questions about fair trials and justice that surrounded the Davis case.


I might be old but not yet gaga

but what do I know?